Episode 32
How to navigate a crisis of meaning by understanding archetypes with Greg Donaldson
In this episode, we are looking at how to navigate a crisis of meaning by understanding archetypes with psychotherapist, Greg Donaldson.
In a previous career, Greg was an actor and our conversation about how to understand and use archetypal patterns is really helpful. Often, when we are having a crisis of meaning we are driven by our subconscious and often I'll pass story. In this revealing episode, Greg and I unpack from both our respective fields about how you can use this knowledge if you're struggling with meaning yourself.
As Greg says, the issue we face as being a human with psychological awareness and a 'cast full of characters', means we have a paradoxical nature. Oppositional characters within us and a lot of the problem of life comes through thinking that I have to choose one 'character' and stick with it (whilst suppressing the others).
It's deep and engaging episode into archetypes and I hope you enjoy.
Key Learnings:
1. Archetypes are innate patterns or energies that can manifest through us, representing different aspects of the human experience.
2. We all have various subpersonalities or parts within us, some of which we may suppress or ignore, leading to internal conflicts and a potential crisis of meaning.
3. Understanding and integrating these different parts or archetypes can help alleviate depression, meaninglessness, and a sense of being stuck in life.
4. Exercises like drawing a line and listing "me" and "not me" traits can reveal suppressed aspects of ourselves that need to be acknowledged and expressed.
5. Striking a balance and allowing different archetypes (e.g., the King, Warrior, Lover, Magician) to express themselves in a harmonious way can lead to personal growth and a more fulfilling life.
6. Archetypes like the Victim and the Prostitute represent universal human experiences of suffering and compromise that need to be honored and integrated.
Show Notes:
- Definition and overview of archetypes
- The concept of subpersonalities and different parts within us
- Exercises to identify suppressed aspects of yourself (the "me" and "not me" exercise)
- Archetypes like the King, Warrior, Lover, Magician, Victim, and Prostitute
- The importance of integrating different archetypes and finding balance
- Using archetypes to navigate a crisis of meaning or feeling stuck in life
- Recommended reading: "Warrior, Magician, Lover and King" by Rod Boothroyd and works by Caroline Myss
Get in touch with Sal
If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you.
Greg's BIO.
Greg is a UKCP psychosynthesis psychotherapist based in Brighton. He has a passion for psychosynthesis and working archetypally, helping clients to come into more acceptance of themselves and their relationships.
Greg also has an interest in integrating peak experiences and has worked as a psychedelic guide for the phase 2 trials at Imperial College for patients with treatment resistant depression.
Having been an actor for 20 years before changing careers, he also has an understanding and interest in creativity and self-expression and how to navigate existential crisis.
Transcript
Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement, a systemic approach to human
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:behavior, performance, and well being.
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:Our psychological, emotional, and
physical health are all connected,
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:and my guests and I endeavor to share
knowledge, strategies, and tools for
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:you to enrich your life and work.
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:Welcome to Mindset, Mood and
Movement, a systemic approach to human
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:behavior, performance, and well being.
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:Our psychological, emotional, and
physical health are all connected,
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:and my guests and I endeavor to share
knowledge, strategies, and tools for
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:you to enrich your life and work.
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:Sal: Hello and welcome.
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:Today we are looking at how to
navigate a crisis of meaning
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:by understanding archetypes.
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:Now, don't worry if you don't
know what either of those factors
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:are, crisis of meaning and
archetypes, we are going to explain.
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:But really it's about helping you
understand perhaps some of these, really
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:useful things that archetypes deliver
and show us, and perhaps the shadow side
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:of them as well, and actually how we
can use them if we're having a really
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:difficult time and really struggling with.
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:meaning or life or what that might be.
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:I'm delighted to join by my friend, Greg,
Greg Donaldson, who is a psychotherapist
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:and an all round archetype genius.
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:He knows a lot about this field.
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:He's worked with me and is a,
is a great font of knowledge.
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:And I have been privileged to
learn about archetypes a lot.
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:They are something which are
an embodying description of
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:something that transcends people.
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:So I'm going to get Greg to
explain more on this, but this
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:is where we're going today, guys.
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:So, and I'm going to hand over to Greg.
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:Greg, welcome.
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:Good to see you.
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:Greg Donaldson: Good to see you too.
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:Archetypal genius.
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:I'm not sure I can handle that, that,
that label, we'll see as we go on.
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:Maybe an archetypal good enough
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:Sal: That's all right with me.
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:All right.
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:the thing with, archetypes that
there is, we need to understand it.
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:So I think the first thing I want to ask
you, Greg, is could you define for us
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:what an archetype is in your definition?
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:Greg Donaldson: In my definition, an
archetype is a, an energy that can come
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:through and be transmitted through us.
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:So when you, when we talk about archetypes
we normally thinking about kind of
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:Jung's work and when you and and part
of Jung's work is talking about the
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:collective unconscious so this kind of
idea that in the unconscious oneness
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:of everyone there's this there's this
sort of storage of different types of
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:energies and archetypes that are playing
through so so the idea being that you know
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:it's like these are known Uh, site, uh,
parts when sometimes life throws us a,
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:a lesson that actually, Oh no, this is,
okay, maybe I need, this is the time that
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:I'm going through with this archetype,
I need to bring this into my life.
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:yeah, so it's difficult to explain
if you're very realist in terms
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:of, materialistic, it's just about,
the, the physical reality, because
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:there's something quite spiritual
to it, and unseen, it's really hard
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:to describe what goes on in the
unconscious, because it's not like
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:a thing that we can measure or see.
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:so archetypes are useful in terms of
thinking about energy, energies or themes
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:that you can use to empower you or to
notice what's going on in your life.
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:so I come from a background of
psychosynthesis which is a kind
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:of, is a, a form of, or map.
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:of psychotherapy that is born out
of a combination of Jungian and
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:Freudian kind of thought and and,
and psychosynthesis kind of marries
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:them both together and goes a little
bit further in terms of using a
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:creative way to think about your life.
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:So in psychosynthesis,
instead of archetypes, we
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:talk about sub personalities.
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:We all have these sub personalities
or players in the orchestra within
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:us that Mostly go unconducted.
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:So part of what therapy would be is
about, is about, noticing that you have a
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:conductor and that you need to step into
relationship to all these different parts.
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:In Jungian therapy, we can think about
it more in terms of general themes and
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:archetypes that are coming through that
we might want to notice what's happening
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:in our lives or what, or what's going on
around us, who we've got attracted to us.
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:Sal: Yeah, really interesting.
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:Thank you.
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:and a very eloquent description.
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:and you're right.
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:Some people haven't come across archetypes
or may have just loosely determined you.
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:It is a big, a big field and we can,
but we can also use the other names.
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:So yes, sub personalities.
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:I think character types, character
traits, personality types.
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:Many of us would have come across some
of these descriptions to describe it.
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:attributes and characteristics and
behaviors and energies of people.
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:And we all know it, it's a bit
like, some subtle ones, the
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:playful one, the serious one.
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:We've all had this very general terms,
but what Greg and I were going to
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:is some of the more specific ones
that, that, that are powerful, that
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:are encapsulating, but also where
they're helpful and not helpful.
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:Now my interpretation of an archetype is
for me personally is to understand where
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:my whole mind, body, energy system is at.
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:So if on a day I wake up and I'm feeling
great, I might be in a sort of a powerful
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:archetype and I can really meet the day.
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:And I might have a certain label for that.
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:Perhaps it's the King archetype
or the Explorer archetype.
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:And some days I might wake up and
it's not all going so well for me.
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:And I might want to be the, the cave
dweller archetype and hide away.
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:And I think it's very helpful to.
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:make sense of these things.
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:And as we said, at the top of our
show, that if you're having a crisis
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:is some kind, or even a crisis of
meaning at the deep level, really
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:understanding your self and these parts
of yourself, which may or may not be
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:working together is really helpful.
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:Greg, when we talk about
understanding parts of ourself.
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:For, for someone who's not really
sure or hasn't really heard about
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:the aspects of being different parts,
could you go a little more into this?
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:And I was going to caveat that because
I do know when I work with people
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:who don't know this, they say, I
haven't heard of this, but then we
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:have the phrase like, part of me wants
to do this and part of me doesn't.
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:So we often speak in this part, part,
aspect anyway, but perhaps you could
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:explain a little more from your.
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:a professional understanding how these
parts interrelate or don't interrelate.
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:So we can understand it better.
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:Greg Donaldson: Absolutely.
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:yeah, and just to highlight again,
this is just like where I've come to
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:in my own understanding and kind of
the reading that I've done and the way
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:that I find it useful to look at life.
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:I come from a background of being
an actor for 20 years, so there's
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:a sense that there's something.
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:Without sounding pretentious, there's
quite something quite shamanic in that
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:art, actually, because what you're
doing is you're jumping into different
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:character aspects and then performing
it on a stage or in front of a camera.
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:And actually part of what that's about is
being able to fully immerse into another
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:human being's experience and then being
able to present that out, hopefully in an
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:entertaining or useful way in the world.
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:I already Start from a place where,
I'm interested in, the experience
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:of the other, and actually, and how
that's possible for all of us, so
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:it's you could talk about, recently
there's been a, TV program, on BBC
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:One, starring, Jimmy Savile, right?
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:Now, I don't want to go off tangent here,
but it's like, when you think about,
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:people who have committed those sorts
of crimes, or people who have committed
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:murder, or whatever, actually, when you
think about it in terms of, the human
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:experience, we are all capable of that.
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:Like we're all capable of going there
and as an actor you can see that
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:because it's like well Yeah, how'd
you get into the mind of a someone
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:who is a pedophile or a murderer or
whatever and actually you realize that?
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:There is always something traumatic
or forgiving or something about, about
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:any human experience and how they've
got there, so that's my kind of upfront
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:speech about it, but about where, why I'm
coming at it is because actually I feel
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:like looking into parts and aspects of
ourself is just what I've always done in
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:a way that I've always thought about it.
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:often,
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:Sal: yeah, I was gonna say I'm
really intrigued because your,
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:your, your backstory as an actor
is something which is different.
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:Certainly, I, I, I've done, I've
done, I think I played maybe
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:years ago, but I'm not very good.
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:But being an actor, of course, the
great actors of, of, of, many...
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:TV shows and movies, they're captivating
and, and, and great actors can
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:step into these different roles and
they're literally different people,
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:and yet it's the same human being.
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:So I think for, for me, I totally
understand archetypes when I look
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:at, a great actor who's plays
a, perhaps a comedic part or a
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:villain part, or a gentle part.
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:And you think, actually it's the same
human being who's got this skillfulness,
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:who's tapping into something such
as, the villain or the good guy
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:or whatever the, the, the part is.
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:so you have an inside line on that.
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:And when we think about those parts,
because as an actor, they're to do a job
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:well, you have to absolutely embody that.
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:You have to really be that part.
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:Otherwise it's, it's see through,
you're not a great actor, right?
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:But what about real life?
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:So when we're dealing with stuff,
how does those, how do those parts
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:certainly for you work, when you might
need to be a certain part or archetype?
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:How do you use that in your own life?
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:Greg Donaldson: if you think about
it, it is similar, because, it's
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:like the Shakespearean thing of,
like, all the world's a stage
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:and we're just players in it.
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:And actually, the thing that the ego
loves the most is, this sort of sense
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:of safety, this reaching for, I am this.
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:I am this.
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:And, When you think about that on a
deeper level, it's just, it's not helpful
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:because, it, just the language of that
is like solidifying, it's making, turning
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:you into an island, it's, you are becoming
an identification of whatever I Whatever
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:the statement I am is, there's curious
experiments done, I don't know if you
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:know the kind of magician, Alistair,
Alistair Crowley, back in the days, he
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:was this dark magician, but he used to
do these sort of tests, like language,
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:like taking things out, like Not saying
the word I to anything, and if he
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:did, if he caught himself, he would
cut himself or something like this.
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:And then in the, in the 70s, there
was a guy called Robert Anton Wilson
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:who tried a similar experiment.
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:And, basically every time he used
the word I, he would bite his thumb.
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:And it was a kind of reminder
of yeah, anything that you
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:attribute I am to is becomes a...
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:becomes an identification, and, and when
you've got identifications that you are
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:a certain thing, then you start having
very heavy opinions and convictions about
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:life, which isn't that helpful, so he
famously, he used to say, convictions
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:cause convicts, so you become a prisoner
of, of your own identifications.
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:So the way it answers your question,
the way I find it useful, is to see it
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:as a kind of ongoing, theatrical event
or filmic event, this life that we're
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:that we're passing through, that is non
static, and so therefore, It's always
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:gonna be changing, so it, so, I'm gonna
have, a cast of characters within me.
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:And some of them are villains.
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:Some of them are sweetness and
light, and some of them are sorrowful
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:martyrs and some of them are,
complete, I don't know, materialists,
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:and some of them are mystics.
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:so this is the, the issue we face as,
being a human being with a kind of
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:psychological awareness and a cast
full of characters is that actually
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:we have this kind of paradoxical,
oppositional characters within us.
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:And, and a lot of the problem.
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:of life comes through, thinking that
I have to choose one and be one,
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:and then once I've found that one
I'll stick with that, my work as a
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:psychotherapist is about, mostly, or
a lot, about discovering who people
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:have got in their cast of characters
and how perhaps they, might understand
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:a different way of working with them.
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:Sal: Yeah, that's so
interesting, isn't it?
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:Because my upbringing, my, my early
upbringing was that you were, you, you
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:were this name, you're the name that
you're given and this is what you do.
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:And you, you, you follow that groove.
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:that's what happens to a lot of us.
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:And it's either either for a
crisis of meaning or you, for some
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:reason you might seek therapy or
you have personal development.
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:Somehow you've got into that space
or perhaps you've been on a yoga
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:journey or something like that.
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:That's, that's opened you
up to this multiplicity.
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:But you're absolutely right.
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:And it reminds me of my old philosophy
teacher, Ann, and she used to say a
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:sentence in the mind is a sentence indeed.
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:And it's, it's true, isn't it?
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:And this is some of the problem stuff,
which in my space of coaching and
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:moving people beyond stuckness, where
the I statement is often very rigid.
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:I am X, I am this, I am this.
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:character, this person.
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:And actually there's something
interesting about going to the shadow
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:sides and the, the deeper parts where
Oh, what about the, yeah, let's say
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:the villain or the rebel, the person
who's really got it all together, but.
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:There's a rebel in there.
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:It's interesting, isn't it?
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:So when we allow those, those parts
to be seen, and the multiplicity
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:I think is really interesting.
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:I know family systems talks about this a
lot as well, and I know you've spoken to
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:me a lot about this in Psychosynthesis,
having an understanding of who we are,
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:as in all, all of the I, all of the
aspects of eyes, absolutely fundamental.
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:Because if we have, an internal
conflict, I don't like the rebel in
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:me, or, the serious part of me is
boring, or whatever that thing is,
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:we've got an issue because it's you.
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:It's still you, but what part of it?
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:So thinking about these, these,
all these parts, if we are...
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:I tell you what, I really wanted
to speak to something here.
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:So I work with a person and, again,
with all my people, I alias them
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:for their own privacy, but I work
with this person and they were
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:displaying the archetype of a savior.
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:So they're going around and perhaps
we could call that the hero archetype.
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:So they were definitely, taking care
of things, very male domain, being the
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:carer, being the savior and we were doing
some work around their levels of stress.
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:And I was like, okay, did you know
you're probably working from this
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:archetype more than you think?
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:And they hadn't even seen it.
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:And on a behavioural level,
it played out like this.
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:Every one of their team came to them with
a problem, and they, and this person,
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:solved this, these people's problems.
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:So then they ended up coming
to this person all the time.
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:So their, my client's
workload was through the roof.
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:And it's like, why can't these
people just, do what they need to do?
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:And I said, because we've set,
you've set up a paradigm here.
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:You've set up a saviour paradigm,
which always implicitly means that
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:it is someone that needs to be saved.
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:And the minute...
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:He shifted from that, the conscious
shift out of, I'm not gonna save this
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:person, I'll be kind, and I'll be
caring, but I'm not gonna save them.
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:Oh my god, literally, it was a sea
change, not only in the way they
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:behave, but how people behave to
them, and I find it so intriguing.
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:Have you got an example of, maybe someone,
an alias of course for privacy, but have
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:you got an example of when you've seen an
archetype at play that hasn't been helpful
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:and you've helped someone work through it?
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:Greg Donaldson: probably millions,
but I can't, I can't, I wanted to
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:respond to your client, to be honest,
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:Sal: Yeah, please do then, yeah.
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:Greg Donaldson: yeah, because there's
something interesting about that
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:journey, really fascinating, like just
even that moment that you're talking
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:about there, where it's Feels like it's
obvious you've hit a, you've hit a theme,
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:it's like this guy's trying to save
the world one person at a time, right?
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:And then, actually, So when you
look at that, you can look at
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:that in a few different ways.
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:It's not just like random, the
fact that he's doing that, right?
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:There's a kind of, some
habitual thing that's happened.
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:So he, there's something, when you
look at any archetype, you can look, or
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:subpersonality, you can look at the kind
of, Light side, positive, transpersonal
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:side of it, the helpful side of it, but
also there's going to be a shadow side to
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:it, so it's really useful to think about
that, I think, when you, especially when
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:you're talking about saviour complex,
and there's plenty of that going around
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:in the kind of healing fields, it's in
the sort of scene of psychotherapy and
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:yoga and, anything to do with healing
the other is like a way to, potentially
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:be working on some level to healing your
own family, or healing your own history,
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:or healing the divide within you, and
so So yeah, it's great to hear that
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:you, you can use that in terms of look,
there's an energy coming through here and
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:now let's look at why that and, and how
that's developed because just noticing
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:it doesn't necessarily change it, right?
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:so there's this, so there's always
a sense like, oh, now I know
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:that and I have that in mind.
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:It's now I need to see where that's
helping me in my life or not helping
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:me, I certainly resonate with it in
terms of my own journey as a therapist.
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:there's a, there's a kind of, sense
that you set that up from the beginning.
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:you say, you put your website up and
you say, Look, come to me and I'm going
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:to, help you with all your problems.
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:Hopefully, what you're not
saying on your website is I'm
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:going to fix all your problems.
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:because as soon as you start
promising something like that, then...
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:You're in your kind of saviour complex.
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:But even if you don't write that on your
website, and someone comes to you, and
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:they're sat in front of you, and they're
saying, that this is all the stuff that's
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:going on in my life, and this and that
and that and that, can you help me?
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:the real answer is, yeah, I can walk
alongside you, and I can help you see what
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:you need to see, but I'm not gonna fix
you, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna wave a
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:magic wand, and you're gonna be better.
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:I'm going to help you learn to step into a
relationship with yourself and, hopefully
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:that will help you improve your life.
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:Sal: Yeah, that's so interesting.
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:And yes, you, I think you're right
in the healing fields, in the yoga
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:field, therapy coaching that there
is a sense that if you haven't got
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:your internal act together, then you
could be coming from that archetype.
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:I know my psychotherapy master was
like, You need to take care of your own
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:stuff before you do any work, right?
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:That's, that's absolute mandate
in what we, what we were
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:training, cause it was vital.
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:It's really important to do your work
yourself and make sure that you're not,
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:you're conscious of your own stuff as
well as you're working with clients.
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:Greg Donaldson: Yeah, yeah, just a sort
of note to that as well, because there can
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:be a big, emphasis on, yeah, you've done,
you've dealt with your own obviously, but,
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:But as being a human being is endless,
it's endless, you never get there, right?
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:so yes, I agree that there does need
to be a sense of you know where your
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:triggers are and where your, where
your work is, but, but you're still
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:walking alongside someone, you don't
have to be like perfectly healed
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:yourself as long as you, you've got
the, uh, reflective, um, skill to know.
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:That's where you might get triggered
and who you might work, that might,
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:have a kind of bearing on who you work
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:with.
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:Sal: Yeah, that's that's that's
such a good point is that that
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:self awareness is so vital.
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:And it makes me think of
the culture that we're in.
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:I grew up in school and I think
school is not that different today.
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:It's very didactic.
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:People tell you what to do.
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:People tell you information, they give
you all this stuff, as opposed to how
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:you think and and I've come across so
many people, both And if they're in
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:the corporate workspace or the working
field as opposed to entrepreneurship,
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:there's often a sense that there's
this sort of hierarchy that the
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:manager or the senior manager, they,
everyone tells everyone what to do.
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:Whereas a more of a inquiry led approach,
what I would call a coaching approach,
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:but it's an inquiry would ask a question,
say, so how come you're doing that?
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:And what's that for?
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:Would be interested in
pulling out of the other.
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:Whereas a lot of our culture is about
telling people what to do, which.
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:I know from my experience, certainly in,
as a man, a lot of that male domain has
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:been about, we'll tell you what to do.
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:And it's, I do wonder, is that this sort
of the power archetype of some kind coming
346
:through there in a, in a general way?
347
:It's, it's a question I don't know
if we need to answer, but it's just
348
:a question that comes in my mind.
349
:What, what are your thoughts on that?
350
:Greg Donaldson: it's interesting when
you talk in that way because what I, I
351
:always think about life, how you, how it's
experienced outside in terms of it being
352
:a projection of what's going on inside.
353
:So you can look at the world.
354
:If you look at the world today, and
there's so much opposition and war, and
355
:you can see what's going on in Palestine
and Israel and the Ukraine and Russia and
356
:just in general human history, there's
this like oppositional kind of like, I'm
357
:gonna wipe you out, kind of thing, And so
why would that be any different to what's
358
:going on in, in our, in our psyches?
359
:And it's a perfect, example actually
really of, of what you're saying
360
:is look at all these structures
that we have that are to do with.
361
:Management and Hierarchy.
362
:It's exactly the same thing that goes
on in our heads, and so that's why we
363
:love it, because we want it, we're like,
we're building the same things that go
364
:on in our heads, but actually, now we're
coming much more round to this idea of
365
:being, living in a, in a place where
it is much more of a kind of where it
366
:isn't more of a curious discussion, and
hopefully that's how it is in our heads.
367
:Do you know what I mean?
368
:And that's how we can, we start to
realize that we're living with a kind
369
:of, the board members of our own psyches.
370
:And so we have to find ways
to communicate with them.
371
:We can't just go in there.
372
:and bang our fist on the table and
say, this is how it is from now on.
373
:But, but most of, mostly all of us
do live in a dictatorship, or a cult.
374
:That's one of my sort of favorite ways of
thinking about it is actually we're all
375
:in a cult and, and we don't know we are.
376
:because we've signed up and so we're
agreeing to all the kind of the, the
377
:rules of how to be and how to operate,
and it's only when we come up against
378
:possibly a, an existential crisis or,
or, or a place where, oh my god, I like,
379
:I can't find any more meaning in my
life right now, it's because the board
380
:members have all gone on strike because
they don't want to live in a dictatorship
381
:anymore, so it's a natural reaction is
to go into Some sort of melancholy, or
382
:meaninglessness.
383
:Sal: that's so interesting and many of us
might be hearing this thinking, really?
384
:Is that how it rolls?
385
:Is that actually how the mind is?
386
:But we do know it, don't we?
387
:We know, of course, the classic
example, is perhaps getting, having a
388
:few too many drinks, alcoholic drinks.
389
:So the person who's got their act
together, maybe works hard, perhaps a
390
:parent, does all the really good stuff,
a couple of glasses of wine or beers, and
391
:suddenly they're like, yeah, I don't care.
392
:And, and this is very different character.
393
:Now we could talk about inhibition,
how the brain works, and we
394
:won't get caught up in that, but.
395
:What is interesting, I think, is
that sometimes those shifts, whether
396
:it's chemical shift or whether it's
an existential shift, it brings
397
:a part forward or an archetype
forward that may be in the recesses.
398
:And I find it very
interesting that you're right.
399
:There's this sort of perhaps leader.
400
:in our minds.
401
:And it could be, I don't
know, let's say it's me.
402
:I'll take my example, Sal, the, the coach,
and it's diligent and this, that and the
403
:other, and really committed to what I do.
404
:Sometimes I'm just a,
I'm just a great big kid.
405
:I just like to play and I'll
do really playful things and,
406
:and I can be multiple things.
407
:And, I've had the fortune of great
teachers and, therapists to help me
408
:through that and understand that better.
409
:But I think when we don't have
a clue of this stuff, it's
410
:really, it can be overwhelming.
411
:But what I would say is, and I'm
going to cycle back to the original
412
:description, a really good movie, or
play if you like the, the deck, the
413
:boards as they say, a really good
movie has a lot of characters in it.
414
:And it's got all the parts, hasn't it?
415
:It's got to have all the parts.
416
:And I think we are so capable of
having all these archetypal parts.
417
:and perhaps if we suppress them and
not understand them because we're
418
:scared of it, we're in deep trouble
and then you're absolutely bang on.
419
:This crisis of meaning can come up
because actually it's an internal crisis.
420
:I'm going to speak to the word crisis
as well because I'm an etymology fan.
421
:Crisis is the Greek, it
means to make a decision.
422
:It's a decision point.
423
:So we use crisis in our current
language as if, as in the word
424
:catastrophe, but it's incorrect.
425
:So if we really are having
a true crisis of meaning.
426
:We need to make a decision and that
might look like I'm not going to be a
427
:Mr Boring anymore, I'm not going to be
a hero archetype anymore, or I'm not
428
:going to be a victim archetype anymore.
429
:It could be one of these things
that is okay, that's got to
430
:shatter because there's other
parts are going to come through.
431
:Now, Greg, I know you're,
you're super skilled at this.
432
:How?
433
:Do we allow those other
parts to come through?
434
:And of course through a school of
psychotherapists is a vital way, but
435
:if someone's, is listening now and
thinking, okay, I get the sense of this.
436
:I've got the sense of that and
the different versions of me.
437
:how how do we start to allow
those parts of us to come through
438
:on a, even on a daily basis?
439
:Greg Donaldson: good question.
440
:I think we have to be
careful not to overdo it.
441
:Because, um, I remember myself when I
first started doing my psychotherapy
442
:training, and there was like one
exercise where you close your eyes, And
443
:you get on a bus, and you're on a bus,
and you realize that you're on a bus
444
:with all these characters on the bus.
445
:And then at some point it gets
revealed that they are you.
446
:They're parts of you, right?
447
:And so then when you get off the
bus, the idea is that you stand
448
:there and then you like, label them
as they go, Oh look, there's Mr.
449
:Thingy.
450
:Oh yeah, he, oh look, there's Mr.
451
:Depressed.
452
:Oh yeah, there's the magician, there's
the pragmatist, there's all these.
453
:But what starts to happen is You can
get overwhelmed with this sort of sense
454
:of Oh my god, am I just gonna go crazy?
455
:Because I've got like all
of these archetypes or sub
456
:personalities in my head.
457
:so my first invitation would be, Really,
it's only really crisis that actually
458
:calls you into working or understanding
these parts of yourself, because they're
459
:the parts that are necessarily not quite
working, they're the part, or they're
460
:the parts that are, you're depressing,
or, or pressing away, that's why I
461
:always think about depression, is that
actually, depression is, if you think
462
:about it, you're talking about etymology,
I mean I don't know the meaning of that
463
:word, but actually if you get into,
actually what it, it, how it sounds,
464
:it, de pressed, I'm, I'm pressing down,
Uh, I'm pressing away a part of myself.
465
:if you, if you, if you press away your
vitality or some aspects of you that you
466
:were taught in your family cult wasn't
acceptable, then you become depressed.
467
:so there are simple ways to do, to
find out what, the simplest way to
468
:find out what you might be, hiding away
or depressing is to, is simply right.
469
:put a line, get an A4 piece of paper,
write a line down the middle and on
470
:the, on the left hand side write me,
and on the right hand side write not me.
471
:Okay, and then in the column of
the me column, just write down
472
:everything you identify yourself as.
473
:I'm this, I'm this, I'm
this, I'm this, I'm this.
474
:List it all out.
475
:And then, and then, have a
really close look at that.
476
:And then in the not me column.
477
:Look at the absolute opposite
of what you've written down
478
:and try and equate them up.
479
:And that's not to say that, you've got all
of this stuff in the Not Me waiting for
480
:you to be expressed, but there's a pretty
big clue that there's something that you
481
:don't think you are in that Not Me column.
482
:And that is a very simple way to
find out actually what you might
483
:need to learn to bring out in your
life, what you might need to bring.
484
:for instance, if you are, sensible, I
am sensible, in your not me, it might
485
:be I am careless, or I am spontaneous,
or, so you find that and then it's like
486
:you go, alright, so it's pretty obvious
that on some level I'm not allowing
487
:myself to be, careless or spontaneous.
488
:So how am I gonna do, how am I gonna and
what, but the, so the next thing is to,
489
:is to think about this in terms of so
that line down the middle, what that, what
490
:that actually represents in psychological
terms, is a kind of, a little bit like
491
:a wall actually, and I'm coming, coming
back to Israel and Palestine, it's like
492
:there's a wall, usually between what we
think we are, and what we think we're not.
493
:And everything that we think we're
not, gets put in, the not side, right?
494
:And it, and it, and, and
locked down in there.
495
:And then what we do is we put guards
on that little wall, or that massive
496
:wall, that are basically, put there in
order to keep the equilibrium, right?
497
:You are allowed to be this, but
you're not allowed to be that.
498
:And that, and so there, then someone
depressed, or having a crisis
499
:of meaning comes into therapy.
500
:And, they just basically want you
to strengthen that wall for them.
501
:usually they're like, I just want to
feel better about who I think I am.
502
:and actually, the way I see it
is, let's find out who you're not.
503
:And celebrate that as well.
504
:But the only way to do that
is by digging under the wall.
505
:And creating, little escape hatches.
506
:And then, so you start to irrigate.
507
:You start to irrigate the energy.
508
:So you bring across spontaneity,
you bring across a carelessness.
509
:you can still be sensible, but you
are irrigating the conscious mind
510
:with a little bit more other energy
from the, from the not allowed side.
511
:Does that make sense?
512
:Sal: It does make sense.
513
:And I love that.
514
:I know, I've been privy to this work.
515
:It's fantastic.
516
:what, what, what my thought comes up
in a sort of a straight away to that is
517
:Yeah, but what if I do something bad?
518
:So let's just say you've got
the sensible archetype, whatever
519
:that is, let's call it sensible.
520
:And then you've got the spontaneity,
spontaneous or the reckless.
521
:And it could be easy to, oh my God,
but I, I can't be reckless and maybe
522
:I've got a family or got work or
business and I, I can't do that.
523
:So there can be some, I, I
sense some fear around that.
524
:which I can only guess is
that I don't understand it.
525
:That's what's coming up in my mind.
526
:If there's fear coming up, there's a
lack of trust, and if there's a lack of
527
:trust, it's because I don't understand it.
528
:And I don't feel I can deal with it.
529
:Which I wonder how you
might answer to that.
530
:So if a person's having the same question,
what if I do let the reckless part come
531
:up when I'm actually quite sensible,
and I need to be, and I'm scared of
532
:that part, but part of me does want
to be a little bit reckless sometimes.
533
:How would you help that person
navigate, maybe that fear I've
534
:named, what would you do with that?
535
:Greg Donaldson: Well, the first thing
that I would say to them is that it'll be
536
:more dangerous not to let that part out
or not to irrigate that energy across.
537
:Because, I don't know if you've ever
experienced this in your own life, I
538
:certainly have, when, when I ignore a part
of myself, or, or something that needs
539
:to be expressed, I either get depressed,
and feel, and feel the me, and cry,
540
:crisis of meaning, or, I act out, this
part, this part that's being depressed,
541
:or put, kept on the other side, will just
break the wall down, and come through,
542
:and take over, and that's usually why,
why, why people are coming to therapy is
543
:because something like that has happened.
544
:The reckless part of them has come
out and said, I've had enough of this.
545
:I'm not living in this cult anymore.
546
:I'm gonna go and wreck the whole village
and comes out into the psychological
547
:village and starts like, Punching
everyone and dragging everyone through
548
:the streets and it's like the sensible
part goes Oh god, no, what's happened?
549
:What's happened?
550
:And then they they come to therapy in
order to like have the wall fixed again
551
:and the recklessness put on the other
side so of course You're exactly right.
552
:It is a fearful situation because
it's not one or the other.
553
:It's not like I am sensible now I need
to be reckless It's like, what would
554
:you do if you mixed sensibleness with
recklessness, what would you find in that?
555
:Probably some kind of magical
potion that creates enough sort of
556
:spontaneity and enough aliveness
that it brings a kind of fear, but it
557
:also brings an aliveness, which is an
antidote to meaninglessness, right?
558
:When, I think this is another part of what
we're talking about in terms of crisis
559
:of meaning, is that actually, usually,
usually that comes from being too safe, to
560
:some respect, because the wall is too well
defined, so actually when you add in, what
561
:I call, stepping over the edge, then it
needs to feel like stepping over the edge,
562
:So for someone who is very identified with
their being sensible, standing on the side
563
:of a mountain with a parachute is going
to feel like I'm basically, I'm going to
564
:die, this is it, I've reached the end,
so So that feels challenging, and I'm not
565
:saying literally you're standing on the
edge of a mountain, but it feels like to
566
:bring in a bit of, like, spontaneity may
feel like standing on the edge of a cliff
567
:or a mountain, and so am I gonna fly,
am I gonna jump, and will the parachute
568
:take me, or am I gonna plummet and, and
die, and the ego will always go for,
569
:want to go for the safer option, will
always want to just head to that place.
570
:Sal: So interesting, is it?
571
:I love what you said.
572
:I love that idea of this irrigation.
573
:And I'm just imagining the sensible
part in me and then perhaps the reckless
574
:or the, the not sensible part and,
and that irrigation, you're right.
575
:It's so easy to get caught up in a black
and white mindset or binary mindset.
576
:it's either this or that.
577
:I'm either sensible or reckless.
578
:And when actually it's like, actually life
doesn't really work like that because.
579
:If you have all these parts in you, all
these archetypal parts in you, then it's
580
:probably more of one part and less of
one part, like a sort of a graduation.
581
:And I love what you said about
irrigation and what might happen.
582
:Because of course, that's a
brand new piece of chemistry.
583
:Psychological chemistry is going on there.
584
:It's something magical.
585
:And if you're stuck, If you have a
crisis and there's something needs to
586
:change then we actually do need something
magical to happen there and and that's
587
:a really beautiful way of describing it.
588
:That really struck me so thank you.
589
:I think one thing I think about the
ego and again ego gets a bad rap.
590
:I used to be in yoga for a lot and
people say, Oh, you get rid of the ego.
591
:I'd be like, why would you do that?
592
:We all need the ego.
593
:There's nothing wrong with the ego,
but I think ego in my experience
594
:is actually quite a habitual thing.
595
:It's like we have a habit of being
the, the I, that I know, whether that's
596
:the serious person or the coach or
the joker or the playboy or whatever
597
:the thing is that's, that's your.
598
:Dominant type.
599
:And we get quite, it's like a habit.
600
:It's like a habit itself, like smoking
or, going to gym, whatever habit,
601
:good or bad or healthy, unhealthy.
602
:Our ego feels like it can be
a habit and there's a default.
603
:So if we look at brain science, it's,
it's always the path of least resistance.
604
:It's go to what you know.
605
:So there's no surprise that the habit
repeats, even if it isn't helpful.
606
:And.
607
:What might happen if we were
to become clear on archetypes?
608
:A question that's come up in my mind.
609
:we, I'm going to give you an example.
610
:I've worked with a client and she
was having a real problem with...
611
:communication with other people.
612
:And she felt like there was a lot
of dominating characters in her, the
613
:place she was working and her company.
614
:And we spoke about what
archetype, what version of you
615
:shows up at the conversation.
616
:And it was actually a bit like a
fighter, but actually more of a
617
:victim as if something's going to
get, I'm going to get a beating here.
618
:I'm going to get a verbal beating.
619
:So she was already on the defense.
620
:So neurologically,
she's in a flight state.
621
:She's already prepped and ready.
622
:And Instead of a conversation,
it was always a An argument
623
:that was her belief pattern.
624
:So we explored a little bit about the
archetypes of the victim, and it's always
625
:happening to me and what that might be.
626
:And we played about, what version
of you could step up to those
627
:conversations differently.
628
:And we looked at the queen
archetype, and this was her,
629
:her term, not mine, her queen.
630
:And I got her to describe what
her queen archetype was, and
631
:it was more of a powerful.
632
:More of a person who had some power,
some, skill, some strength, as opposed to
633
:a smaller sort of squashed down person.
634
:And it seemed to help this person
really well, but I know you are
635
:very clear on this, that we have
to be careful of the archetype and
636
:perhaps the shadow and the light.
637
:So using our queen analogy, and I
know you've said this to me before,
638
:but what might we want to look out
for if we, if we step into that
639
:without really thinking it through?
640
:What type of queens might there
641
:be?
642
:Greg Donaldson: this is it.
643
:I think I know what you're getting at.
644
:if you look at actually royalty and, and
dictatorships throughout the, the ages,
645
:you can see where, that kind of sovereign
power can be also abusive or, or, shadow
646
:it's like I am the absolute, truth, I'm
the connection to God, I think, I think,
647
:royal archetypes are really useful in
terms of like king, queen, even like in
648
:the tarot with the sort of, Prince and
Princess, it's all the, it's like a sort
649
:of sense of oh yeah, you're on your way,
you're on this journey to king, to your
650
:kingdom or to your queendom, but, but
that's not to say also that, that the more
651
:kind of, Sort of like, if you think about
like in the, in the Queen of Swords, which
652
:is in tar, in a tarot deck is about like
becoming like absolutely sharp, mentally
653
:focused and, and then, at work, for
instance, with your client, it's not about
654
:her needing to come like, oh, the friendly
queen that will like, look after everyone.
655
:It might be the queen that has to
be like, looks at one eye, and kind
656
:of sees what sees what her domain.
657
:And then the other eye is purely, a
cold eye, no, it can see what needs
658
:to happen, off with their heads.
659
:I can't hire these people anymore.
660
:Look, they're absolutely useless,
I need to get rid of them.
661
:and that becomes, that's useful,
but it's still, can be powerful,
662
:and it's not like the Queen of
Cups, for instance, that would be...
663
:I am the loving queen, the loving mother
of creativity, and this is what I need
664
:to imbibe in my people, this sort of
sense of, let's all share, and I will
665
:share my wealth, and all this kind of
stuff, which is another great archetype,
666
:so yeah, you're right, there has to
be kind of specificity to these kind
667
:of, thinking about these archetypes,
and actually what they might offer in
668
:their shadow as well that could, could
get attached to that power, right?
669
:That's why you might need, also
need the fool in there, to come
670
:in and tell the truth with humour.
671
:in case the, King or Queen get, carried
away with their own sense of power.
672
:You
673
:Sal: That's, yeah, it's such
an interesting point, isn't it?
674
:Because I'm picturing, I'm very visual,
so if you can play along, I'm imagining
675
:a stage, because Greg being an actor,
and on that stage, you know, the, actor
676
:at that moment steps forward and does
their lines and delivers their piece.
677
:And then, of course, if it's all very
serious and the idea of the, of the,
678
:The performance is to be quite comedic.
679
:You might get someone butt in and
make a, like an absolute joke of them.
680
:And it could be the joker or the
playful one or whatever it is.
681
:And of course, if we don't allow
those aspects of our mind to step
682
:forth and step back to graduate in
and graduate out and to balance, then
683
:we're slipping to a very, uniform way.
684
:Aren't we?
685
:As in one.
686
:And of course the
problem with one is that.
687
:If we need to be a certain way because
we always need to be a different way.
688
:it's, you, you don't want to
be at work how you are at home.
689
:if you lead at work, you don't walk into
the house and go, Everybody dinner at six.
690
:You're not an MD you're a dad, a mom
or something or if you're playing with
691
:your kids you don't go, I don't know.
692
:You don't become like
a different archetype.
693
:That's not helpful rather than the
dad archetype or mom archetype.
694
:So I think there's a skillfulness,
isn't there about what?
695
:version of me, what archetype, what aspect
of me needs to come forward at this time?
696
:And I think that's what I've learned from
this work is that if we don't understand
697
:what's needed at this time, Either a habit
will happen, which would be an old habit
698
:and perhaps an unhelpful one, or if it's
predicated on fear or something like that,
699
:it might just become a defender, batting
off everyone, instead of an explorer who's
700
:Wow, this is a brand new exciting thing.
701
:I've no idea what's going to happen.
702
:So I think there's a skillfulness, isn't
there, about if we're in a crisis of
703
:meaning, if we're really struggling with
where we're at, how we can embody and
704
:tune into archetypes, but no, What's
appropriate now, and maybe it's a bit of
705
:a blend, it's like the queen and the joker
need to come together to the meeting,
706
:or perhaps it's the, I mean there's the
sage archetype, one of my favourites,
707
:because it's got stuff I like to do,
but the sage archetype is of course is
708
:all wisdom and light, but what about
the explorer who's like, well I don't
709
:know, let's go have a look, so if we
bring forth the right balancing, we're
710
:going to shift, and if it is a crisis
of meaning, You need to make a choice.
711
:And it's which one are
you going to choose?
712
:Or which several are you going
to choose to come forward?
713
:I'm interested to know, Greg, what
are your, I know there's some, if
714
:we look at Carl Jung's work, and
there's guys, we'll put some links
715
:in the show notes, but there's some
overarching archetypes, aren't there?
716
:Are there any that really stand
out for you that are helpful when
717
:we're going through a crisis?
718
:Greg Donaldson: Yes, there are.
719
:there's a brilliant book by Rod Boothroyd
called Warrior, Magician, Lover and King.
720
:And that's a really useful way
of looking at those kind of four
721
:archetypes, especially for men,
I think there might even, there's
722
:the same version for women as well.
723
:but it's, it's about setting
up your council, if you like.
724
:So it's like the king is the,
is the overall purpose holder.
725
:It's I look at my life and this is what
I want to experience, this is how I
726
:want my life to be, these are my values.
727
:And then you, and then you go
about, with the team, the team
728
:of warrior, magician and lover.
729
:So you've got your kind of warrior
who will go out into the world.
730
:and do the whole kind of career thing
or do or basically work out a way to
731
:be in the world make sure that you're
fed and housed and taken care of.
732
:The magician is more like the the
kind of puzzle, he's the one that
733
:kind of comes up with the, the
solutions to the puzzles of life.
734
:you give him the, the kind
of, oh, how do I need to think
735
:about this, this, this problem?
736
:Or what's this thing
that's going in my life?
737
:And the magician can help with that.
738
:And then the lover is about, like,
how you do relationships, isn't it?
739
:Like, how am I gonna, can I bring
intimacy into my relationships?
740
:Not just, romantic relationships,
but, like, all relationships.
741
:And so you've got these, amazing team
of archetypes there, led by the king.
742
:The problem that we see a lot is that the
king abdicates, and just puts his feet
743
:up, and then those, those other three,
they go off and just do their own thing.
744
:So if they don't have a leader...
745
:then they can be, they can start
working for their own causes, which
746
:then leads into another whole load
of other trouble, So that's one
747
:lens you can look at it through.
748
:Another lens that I like to look
at things through is Caroline Miss.
749
:she talks about, archetypes and these
kind of contracts that we, we come into
750
:this life with and lessons to learn.
751
:Alright, and she's got this
idea that there are four
752
:archetypes that we all share.
753
:Now, two of them you might
find quite surprising, right?
754
:So you've already mentioned the
victim archetype, and the other
755
:one is the prostitute, right?
756
:And it's really, that's really, I
find that so fascinating, because
757
:actually, no one wants to identify
themselves as having a victim archetype.
758
:But actually, we're all,
we've all suffered, right?
759
:It's if you go into sort of like the
Buddhist teachings, it's the first
760
:law is like, life is suffering, right?
761
:And so, and so the victim archetype
speaks to that in terms of yeah, we,
762
:we, we do, we all have suffering in our
lives, no matter what that looks like.
763
:Some of it might be more, look
more extreme, in terms of like
764
:childhood abuse and childhood trauma.
765
:But, but whatever happens to us, we
come through our childhood and we're
766
:traumatized to some level, right?
767
:you could say with a small t, but it's
like you might get ignored, or you just
768
:being born, traumatic event, right?
769
:so the, the thing about the victim
archetype is if you get identified
770
:with that one, then actually what you
attract to you are the archetypes, she's
771
:talking about the The triangle, the
victim triangle, the, you get into this
772
:kind of you'll get people who are going
to come and rescue you out of that,
773
:or you're going to get people who are,
become your sort of perpetrator, become
774
:the person that's bullying you, right?
775
:So then, so then that circle of those
three archetypes gets to just play along,
776
:and then, but then on another level,
think about that in terms of that's an
777
:internal triangle, it's like when I'm
in my victim, then who comes along?
778
:The, the, the person in me that thinks
they know better and that they should
779
:get rid of this victim and stand up for
themselves, so that might be useful,
780
:but it also might not be useful.
781
:so I, I can do a lot of work with
people around how to, almost build,
782
:what I get people to do is I get
them to build a statue in their
783
:own mind to the victim, right?
784
:It's yeah, you make it big and gold and
shiny and massive, As big as you like, and
785
:then bow down to it and give it everything
like yes, you have suffered, and then get
786
:up and walk away from it, alright, and you
know it, you know it exists, it's there
787
:in your psyche, but now I'm going to go
over here and do this, too many people
788
:set up camp at the bottom of that, that
statue and go I'm just going to live here,
789
:because this is, this is much, This is all
I need actually, it's just like my, my,
790
:my enjoyment of this suffering, when I say
enjoyment of suffering, it's that comes
791
:from the sort of tantric view of like,
all of these, demons that we have, or all
792
:of these archetypes, that we can, even
if they're in the shadow side, there's
793
:some pleasure we're getting out of it.
794
:There's such a pleasure of being a victim.
795
:I can, it's like I'm eating
suffering for breakfast, it's like
796
:I get, get something from that.
797
:so all the work is, I find interesting,
it's just about yeah, whatever's
798
:there, notice it and honour it, and
find out why you need to honour it.
799
:And then, and then, coming back to what
you were saying about transitioning,
800
:learn how to become a little bit
more of the witness or the conductor.
801
:So you can direct the energies through.
802
:It's like, oh, now I feel the
rebel coming through, or Mr.
803
:Sensible needs to come back, or,
or like a mixture of the two, which
804
:creates an alchemy of skillful will.
805
:You know what I mean?
806
:We'd say in psychosynthesis, once
you bring love and will together,
807
:you get this skillful will.
808
:And so you could say the same about
archetypes when they maybe start working
809
:together, collaborating together.
810
:like the King, the Warrior,
the Lover, Magician thing.
811
:Suddenly you get this alchemy
of expansion and creativity
812
:Sal: Beautiful, beautifully put.
813
:There's images in my
mind, I'm very image led.
814
:I've got this, because being an
actor, it's all on stage right now,
815
:but I've got this image of all these
parts, all these archetypes, and the
816
:spotlight is shining down on one.
817
:But if you're cool, you can be a
light, lighting conductor as well.
818
:And you shine the light
on different archetypes.
819
:You might be brighter on the king, a
little lighter on the lover or, um,
820
:bright on the, on the warrior archetype.
821
:And you can start to play and
brighten up and add people in.
822
:It's, it's fascinating, isn't it?
823
:of course it's a huge field and we've,
we've, we've obviously touched on it.
824
:and to obviously give everyone a
feel and I think in a way, perhaps
825
:some understanding that you're
way more than perhaps just the
826
:identity you might be attached to.
827
:And that's a good thing.
828
:That's a healthy thing.
829
:You can be way more.
830
:And when you start to gently understand
these aspects of self, and I've
831
:done a lot of work on this myself,
understanding the bits that we've hidden,
832
:the bits that are shameful, the bits
you don't like or don't understand.
833
:When we start to bring everyone
in the room, in the mind,
834
:you start to go, Oh, okay.
835
:So all these parts, and instead of
it being terrorizing or scary, you
836
:start to understand it's more of a,
a collage or hologram of sorts, where
837
:this beautiful contrasting nature of all
these parts can actually reside together.
838
:But we need the light of awareness
to understand this and we need the
839
:light of awareness to, to bring things
together and, and, and as you say,
840
:Greg, to alchemise, to really use that.
841
:take a breath.
842
:Greg, thank you for your time, your
knowledge and your thoughts and
843
:sharing with us about archetypes
and, and how they may help.
844
:If you're struggling
with crisis of meaning.
845
:Perhaps I invite you to really feel
this, that there's something possibly
846
:coming through and it's actually a
chase, a point of decision and change,
847
:not necessarily something terrible.
848
:And I think this is such a thing I've
learned from my psychotherapeutic
849
:background, into my coaching work.
850
:And Greg, of course, has shared
a lot with me that actually a
851
:difficult time isn't necessarily bad.
852
:It could be the right catalyst for change.
853
:So it can be like, OK, I'm
really struggling right now.
854
:That's telling me something shifting
as opposed to I got to get rid of it.
855
:So I hope that this is an
inspiring, insightful line of
856
:thinking that you can take forward.
857
:And of course, we will leave
Greg's details in the show notes.
858
:We'll add some bits around
the books Greg mentioned.
859
:And yeah, perhaps when you go
away from this session, sit for
860
:a second, get that pen and paper
out, draw the line down the middle.
861
:Who are you?
862
:And who are you not?
863
:I just get super interested in
that because what we don't look
864
:at is often really insightful.
865
:so it's an amazing simple, yeah,
elegant exercise Greg's given us.
866
:thank you, dear listener.
867
:Thank you, Greg, for your time and your
868
:wisdom.
869
:And, I'll talk to you on the next one.
870
:Take
871
:care.
872
:Sal Jefferies: Thank you
so much for listening.
873
:If you enjoyed the episode,
please subscribe and if a friend
874
:would benefit from hearing this,
do send it on to them as well.
875
:If you would like to get in touch
yourself, then you can go to my website,
876
:which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S
A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.
877
:Hit the get in touch link and there
you can send me a direct message.
878
:If you'd like to go one step further
and learn whether coaching could help
879
:you overcome a challenge or a block
in your life, then do reach out and
880
:I offer a call where we can discuss
how this may be able to help you.
881
:Until the next time, take care.
