What makes a positive life with Michelle Flynn

Sal: 00:00:03

Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement, a systemic approach to human

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behavior, performance, and well being.

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Our psychological, emotional, and

physical health are all connected,

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and my guests and I endeavor to share

knowledge, strategies, and tools for

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you to enrich your life and work.

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Hello and welcome.

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I am delighted to be joined

by my guest, Michelle Flynn.

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And Michelle and I are going to be talking

today about what makes a positive life.

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Michelle, like me, has a multitude

of skill sets, where she comes at

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human performance and human behavior.

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And we're going to tuck into those.

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But if you're wondering how to

have a positive life, and perhaps

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like me, you might be digging in.

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what does that mean?

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What is the, what is the

construct of a positive life?

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This is for you.

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So Michelle, welcome to the podcast.

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Michelle Flynn: Thank

you very much, Niall.

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Thanks for having

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Sal: It's great to have you here.

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Let's perhaps start with the most

important point and define, perhaps

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for you, and I have my own definition,

but for you, Michelle, what would

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you define as a positive life?

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Michelle Flynn: I know it's

a very broad, broad topic.

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So for everyone, it is

going to be individual.

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And for me personally, a positive life

is about, Good habits for happiness and

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health, because for me, ultimately, if

we're not happy or if we're not healthy,

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then nothing else really matters.

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And also everything else

is impacted by that.

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So it's giving a starting point

to bring focus to build habits

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that can be long term sustainable.

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Sal: Really nice, beautifully put.

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My term of a positive life, it's funny

because I have a bit of an existential,

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mind, so I, I integrate the negative and

the positive together, so I, that's my

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own definition, but my interpretation

would be that which is something which is

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always growing, something you can always

move on and learn from, even if there are

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difficult parts, even if there are times

when it's not easy or the health is not

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great, but it's always this evolution.

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That would be my term of a positive

life, that it has this growth and

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this continuous movement forward.

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Now, I'm really interested to talk to

you today about a couple of key areas.

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We cross over on some, but one, I have

a personal understanding, but not a

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professional, and that's the area of food.

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Or, we could call it, biochemical

nutrition, we can call it

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molecular structure that's imbued.

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There are many names for this domain

and of course it's covered, isn't

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it, with emotions, it's covered with

a lot of different perspectives.

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So perhaps you can share a little

bit with us about how food, so your

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interpretation of food, perhaps how

you work with it, how does that come

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in, how do you work with that to help

a person have what we're looking at

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today as a positive and healthy life.

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Michelle Flynn: It's so key to it and

there are so many different messages out

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there that we're being told all of the

time that it can be very overwhelming.

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and sometimes it can feel quite,

like we're put under pressure.

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There's a lot of, you should do this.

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And actually, it's about

taking it back to the basics so

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people understand what food is.

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because there's a lot of

things that we're eating that

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ultimately is not actually food.

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but why food is important to not just the

obvious health benefits of eating sort of

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good food choices, but the wider aspect

of how it can impact, yes, our physical

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health, but also our mental health.

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And often people don't draw the

connection between the brain and the gut.

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And the more that we

can understand the fact.

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that our gut really is our second brain,

and in some cases can be even more

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powerful than our main brain, the more

that we are then able to take control

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and as you stated about a positive life,

continue to grow in a positive way.

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Sal: Yeah, that's really nice.

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It's so interesting, isn't it?

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When we think about the misunderstandings

and the interpretation, I'm so much

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on that and the work I do, but when

we got the word food, it has lots of

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labels, both practical and emotional,

some functional and some dysfunctional.

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That is really interesting

what you said there.

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When you were mentioning about

the second brain and the gut and

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the impact on mental health, it's,

it's starting to become more known.

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I've had to look into this field for

many years because I have an autoimmune

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condition and it is a gut based condition.

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It's multi layered.

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I'm happy to go into that as some some

depth if it's useful today, but Really

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understanding that what's happening

in the microbiome, that's all the

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bacteria of the gut, all the chemical

stuff, which is of course fueled by the

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food we eat, whether that's whatever

quality or whatever type that is the.

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in a way the fuel and the,

and the pieces that make it.

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But it's so interesting, isn't it?

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When we think about that serotonin, I

think isn't it some of the 80 percent of

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serotonin production is made in the gum,

even though it's a neurotransmitter, which

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is connected to fulfillment and happiness.

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So we need to understand this relationship

to food on a, I think a practical level.

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But how about getting to the basics?

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So someone's listening now and might be,

let's say they're not so clued up on it

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and they just want to learn some more.

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Where's our start point?

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Where do you take us through with

food and say, here's number one.

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This is what we're going to start to do.

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Would you take us through your steps?

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That'd be really helpful.

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Michelle Flynn: Yeah, I think for

me, the key thing is to take away

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the overwhelm, to make it simple to

understand and for people to have some

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key, I don't like the word rules, but

we'll say rules that they stick by

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when they are out shopping or cooking

or making food choices when they're

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out busy at work or out for dinner.

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So for me, it's about that real

understanding between what is actually

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real food and what is ultimately junk.

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And we add the word junk next to food,

but fundamentally, it's not really food.

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It's highly processed, full of

chemicals and lots of other things

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that are not good for the gut.

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So by explaining what real food.

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actually is, which is whole food, real

food that we would cook with ingredients

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that we would recognize a carrot, an

onion, an apple, a chicken breast.

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It's, it doesn't just have

to be fruit and vegetables.

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We have the whole

spectrum, across real food.

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The difference between, for example,

a chicken breast and a chicken nugget

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or an apple or a slice of apple pie.

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Understanding the, the difference so

that someone is empowered to make the

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real change themselves because they

understand what they're looking for

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when they're making their shopping list

or in the supermarket, understanding

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what labels really mean so that

they can make those smarter choices.

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Sal: Yeah, I love that.

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It's so interesting, isn't it?

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We can go into a store and

most stores are built around

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psychological impacts, by the way.

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So there's, this might be a bit of a deal

breaker for you, but some stores are laid

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out in a way that has fruit and veg first.

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And there's some science that would

suggest that if we buy the fruit and

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veg first, when we go to the middle

of the shop with all the package goods

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are, we are more likely to buy those

because we feel good about ourselves

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because we've done a Healthy Purchase.

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So be mindful shopping that these

things are skewed against us.

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The modern world is actually

skewed against us, isn't it?

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We go into stores, there's a ready meal.

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There's, boxes of stuff, there's packages.

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And really they're just chemistry sets.

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That's the way I look at them.

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They're sets of chemistry.

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They're put together in a chemical

way as a lot of fast food joints are.

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not to name some big names, but they

are chemistry, chemically made products.

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They are not food products.

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I think what you're saying is

so powerful to really get the

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distinction between, is this a food?

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This is a food group, like a vegetable,

a piece of meat, a fish, whatever

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the food group, or is it part of a

process that's got the word in it?

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And that's such a nice delineation to

think about as we, as we go forwards.

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Now I've looked into food.

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I mostly eat a plant based diet myself.

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I say mostly because I'm not rigid.

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Most of the time it's a

plant based whole food diet.

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Occasionally I'll deviate and I'm

all right with that because I have

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a sort of an overarching thing.

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But for someone who is struggling

on perhaps they just don't like

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cooking, they just chuck a meal in

the microwave, that kind of vibe.

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How do you help that person get

from that mindset and behavior?

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To looking at the whole foods thinking

about how they might cook something

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that's nutritious and good and going

from that Let's say the quick and easy

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route to a more considered healthy route.

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Michelle Flynn: Yes, and it is difficult

because we are all really busy and

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convenience food is called that for a

reason because it is very convenient and

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if we look at what has gone on over the

last few decades with the introduction

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of the microwave and the ready meal and

delivery services, it has become really

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convenient to eat unhealthily and it

is less convenient To, as you said,

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spend the time cooking a healthy meal.

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So when I first start working with

someone, it's understanding why they

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actually want to make the change in

the first place, because I can give

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someone all of the information, but

if ultimately they don't want to make

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the change, they don't have a strong

enough reason to make the change, then.

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They're probably not going to make it,

or maybe I need to support them to work.

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As you mentioned earlier about

it, emotions work with them as to

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what it is that stopping them want

to make those positive changes.

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So that's got to be the key thing is that.

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If someone comes to me and wants to

make a change, but really they're just

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not ready, then, it's probably not the

right time for us to be focusing our

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attention on that particular change.

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Maybe we need to delve a bit

deeper, using tools like cognitive

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behavioral therapy to understand.

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What they're thinking, because ultimately

your thoughts create the feeling

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and the feeling creates the action.

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So if you're negative thinking,

you're not going to feel great

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and you're probably not going to

want to eat a sort of eat a salad.

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it's using different tools to get

the person in the right position so

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that they feel, back in control and

ready to make the changes they need.

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Sal: we're sitting here thinking right?

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Okay.

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I want to make some changes I

as we were similar in this way.

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I would look at a client I might help

them with their own choices But food I'll

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hand over to another professional like

you or I'll get them my clients to focus

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on themselves I think of James Clear's

work, The Habit Specialist, and it's a

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really nice piece of work he did, he took

it on from Charles Duhigg's work, but

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he came up with a, a powerful statement,

and I think it's valid in psychology,

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which is find a compelling reason.

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If you don't have a compelling reason,

you are not going to get up at 6am

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and go to the gym when it's dark.

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You're not going to put down the ready

meal and think, I'll, I'll, I'll, Get

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a recipe and I'll cook for half an

hour and I'll make some great food.

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You're just not going to go there

unless the reason doesn't have enough

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compulsion enough energy and emotion in

it And what I find really interesting

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is that our brain and most of us

don't know this But our brain is

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wired for two two kind of key things.

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Number one is safety The whole brain

system, every piece of structure

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is hardwired for us to stay safe.

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The other one is about managing

energy and energy efficiency.

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So we will always take the easiest route.

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That's how we're clever.

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That's how humans have

dominated the earth.

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That's also why we have weight gain

because we're very good at storing energy.

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we're very good at efficient systems.

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The problem we have is that the

modern world, and it seems the

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modern nutrition system goes

absolutely against our human system.

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So we have to consciously change that.

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That's what I see and that's what I've

had to do with my own nutritional choices.

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What are you seeing as a really great

step that you might get someone who

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wants to find that compelling reason?

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how might you say, okay,

let's let's go there.

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What would you do with them?

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Michelle Flynn: It is interesting

because often if someone's coming

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to me wanting to change food, it

might be related to weight loss.

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and a wedding or a holiday is a very good

motivator for helping us keep on track.

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And diets are great for a

very short period of time, but

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they do not work long term.

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they're great for that wedding

day or getting into that

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outfit for the Christmas party.

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But it's about the longer term

habits, as you mentioned, James Clear

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and, understanding that reason why.

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So it would be through questioning.

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If, if the answer is, I just

want to fit into my clothes and

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them to be more comfortable,

there's an easier solution then.

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changing how you eat and going to

the gym, which is actually just

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buying the next size up of clothes.

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And I've been down that route.

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I have gone through those phases where

I'm determined I will not go up the

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next size and then, oh, okay, I'm here.

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so it's really understanding more about

that person, what their motivators

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are, why they've come to me in the

first place, because they may think

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that it's weight loss, but actually.

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Through conversation and understanding

them better, you realize that

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potentially they're having difficulties

at work or they're struggling in

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their relationship or as a parent.

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so by understanding more about their

life, which often starts with the

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question, just tell me about yourself.

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And people are often not given that time

and space to just talk about themselves.

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So they then start to.

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And I start to question and,

we get to the, the important

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stuff of what really matters.

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and often when it is about food, it may

be looking at, a health concern either

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for themselves or a family member.

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It may be that they have

become new parents and.

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They're now, have a new priority of

sort of a child to look after and

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they want to be able to make sure that

they are fit and healthy to do that.

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So it's definitely, everyone is different.

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So it's about really giving someone that

space to reflect on their lives and dig

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deeper into what actually really matters.

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Sal: Yeah.

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Such a great question is that the

hierarchy, the hierarchal structures of

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the brain and the hierarchal structures

of our beha beliefs and behaviors

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are, are that I've got clients who are

so driven, they work really, really

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hard and they're often founders, or

they might be freelancers, they're,

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you're really pushing hard and that.

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That goes up the chain of hierarchy.

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That's more important than their health.

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And it's amazing the amount of

people, particularly midlifers.

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And I'm like, okay, so yeah, you're

going to grow a successful business.

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Amazing.

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I'll support you on that journey.

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I'll do all the mindset

performance work with you.

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But what happens in 10...

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or 20 years when you can't function

because you failed to look after your

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body because you were too busy, right?

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You're working all the time.

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You're like, Oh, it doesn't matter.

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My business is more important.

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And I say to every one of my

founders, okay, you are the business.

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If you lose your health,

you lose everything you do.

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And I, it's an.

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It's the sacrosanct fact and any of us

who've had a health condition, I have a

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chronic condition, which comes and goes

and generally I'm in good shape because

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of all the practices that I do, but it

can come and catch, catch me sometimes.

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I have a flare, what we call in, this,

this condition, a flare up, and then

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you have to be really with your body.

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And for me, I feel a bit more gentle.

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I have to change my nutrition a bit.

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And it's so revealing when you

have health taken away from you.

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And it's so powerful, like

I've got to get it back.

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I've got to feel good.

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And what I worry about is when

we get it back, we're like, Oh,

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let's just go back to what we know.

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So status quo bias, use

a bit of psychology here.

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My, my work and what I love to get you

to think of, let's think, how can we

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shake that wonderful mind of a person we

might be working with about status quo

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bias and how we might come out of it?

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Michelle Flynn: Yeah.

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And I think it's interesting

talking about you don't realize

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what you've got until it's gone is

that that is what happened to me.

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That's why I retrained as a coach

was that I was a very successful

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recruitment business owner.

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And one morning I woke up and had a

severe pain in the left side of my

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chest, which felt like a heart attack.

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And it is very interesting.

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Thing that you say about, we

have a health scare and then

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we forget that that happened.

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'cause that's exactly what happened to me.

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I was rushed to hospital.

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Fortunately it wasn't a heart attack,

so I decided to ignore the fact that I'd

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collapsed and been taken to hospital and

for three years ignored that I was tired.

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I was gaining weight, I had digestive

problems, I had memory problems.

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I was getting sick a lot.

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It, I was ticking all the boxes, for

someone that really needed to stop and pay

305

: 00:16:20

attention and it wasn't until I collapsed

for a second time that I did that.

306

: 00:16:24

So I completely agree with you that

often we have to have gone through

307

: 00:16:29

our own journey to realize that we

really need to make a difference.

308

: 00:16:32

And that's when people are then either

speaking to a doctor or a nutritionist

309

: 00:16:36

or a health coach or a therapist, whoever

is the right person to support them.

310

: 00:16:41

Sal: Yeah.

311

: 00:16:41

so important.

312

: 00:16:42

And I'm sorry to hear that's happened,

but I guess the difference When we have

313

: 00:16:46

a crisis, and I say this a lot, I love

etymology, I like to know where things

314

: 00:16:50

come from, and the word crisis comes from

Greek, krisis, which means to decide.

315

: 00:16:55

So we have to be very careful,

we use words incorrectly a lot.

316

: 00:16:59

It doesn't mean catastrophe,

it means decide.

317

: 00:17:00

So if you have a health

crisis, it's a decision point.

318

: 00:17:03

It's such a key one that if you are

clear in your mind enough, And you

319

: 00:17:08

can get your hierarchical priorities

a little clearer, I need to be well, I

320

: 00:17:12

need to function as though I might have

a business, or a family, or a partner.

321

: 00:17:15

That has to come first, and you

need to recalibrate your life,

322

: 00:17:19

and recalibrate your thinking.

323

: 00:17:21

Because thinking is a habit.

324

: 00:17:22

The human brain works on habit

structures, it works on repetition.

325

: 00:17:26

It's a very elegant system, right

up to the point that pattern, or

326

: 00:17:30

habit, starts to become redundant.

327

: 00:17:32

Such as, overwork, overstress, eat badly.

328

: 00:17:36

Yeah, it might be sustainable for

five years in your twenties, get

329

: 00:17:38

to your thirties, you're going to

have issues in forties, you're going

330

: 00:17:40

to have a whole host of problems.

331

: 00:17:42

So yes, it does need that

waking up, doesn't it?

332

: 00:17:44

And I too have met those

points and I forget as well.

333

: 00:17:48

So I forget when I'm really bulletproof

healthy, I'm like, yeah, I'm super mad.

334

: 00:17:52

I can do anything.

335

: 00:17:53

And I might have a little issue.

336

: 00:17:54

I'm like, Oh no, no, no, no, no, no.

337

: 00:17:55

I'm actually a vulnerable human being.

338

: 00:17:57

Need to remember that and be

kind to yourself and do the,

339

: 00:18:00

do the appropriate things.

340

: 00:18:01

Now I'd love to.

341

: 00:18:02

Kind of segue this a little more into some

spaces, which I know we both straddle,

342

: 00:18:06

but that's the space of movement because

if we are eating right, nutritious

343

: 00:18:13

whole food, food that's made from a

plant, not in a plant, as someone used

344

: 00:18:17

to say, and our biochemistry is working

well in the body, but we're not moving.

345

: 00:18:23

It is a, it's a fundamental

piece of the pie, isn't it?

346

: 00:18:26

We need to do.

347

: 00:18:27

So what are your thoughts on

movement and how do you treat

348

: 00:18:30

the movement part of your work?

349

: 00:18:33

Michelle Flynn: I absolutely agree.

350

: 00:18:34

It's been one of the

biggest changes to my life.

351

: 00:18:37

I was very sedentary in my sales career.

352

: 00:18:41

a lot of times sat at a desk and, I

didn't think about movement at all.

353

: 00:18:45

And, I try it, you go to the gym

for a bit and then the novelty would

354

: 00:18:48

wear off until it was that point of.

355

: 00:18:52

Realization that a, I need to start

doing some, which probably was initially

356

: 00:18:56

related to weight and what I look like,

but very much is no longer about that.

357

: 00:19:02

It's about exactly, as you said, the

importance of it again, same with

358

: 00:19:06

food, physical health, but also our

mental health, one of the best ways.

359

: 00:19:11

For someone to clear their head is to

do whatever movement works for them.

360

: 00:19:15

And when I'm working with people,

for me, it's about them exercise.

361

: 00:19:19

I prefer the word hobby.

362

: 00:19:21

Let's find something that you

really enjoy, preferably doing

363

: 00:19:25

with people that you really even

better if you're doing it outside.

364

: 00:19:28

That it becomes a regular thing

that isn't a chore in the diary.

365

: 00:19:33

And for some people that is the gym.

366

: 00:19:35

They love going to the gym.

367

: 00:19:36

Brilliant.

368

: 00:19:37

For other people, that's

definitely not right for them.

369

: 00:19:40

And they want to run out on the trails.

370

: 00:19:43

So it's about finding what that is.

371

: 00:19:46

And if people aren't sure, I'll often

go back to childhood and say, what

372

: 00:19:50

did you used to do for fun as a kid?

373

: 00:19:52

And they'd say, Oh, I

love to ride my bike.

374

: 00:19:54

I had a skateboard.

375

: 00:19:55

I used to, Oh, I loved

horse riding, trampolining.

376

: 00:19:59

Okay.

377

: 00:19:59

Why can't you do that as an adult?

378

: 00:20:01

Opening up the fact that it doesn't

have to just be about the gym.

379

: 00:20:05

There are many more options for this.

380

: 00:20:07

Sal: I love that.

381

: 00:20:08

It's such a great one.

382

: 00:20:09

And I was thinking, I, if you, if you

ask me, I'd be like, I love to cycle.

383

: 00:20:12

I used to love being on my bike as a kid.

384

: 00:20:14

And as an adult now,

I'm, over half a century.

385

: 00:20:16

I've been on the planet a long time.

386

: 00:20:18

I still love to cycle.

387

: 00:20:19

Obviously I'm careful on the

roads, but being on my bike

388

: 00:20:21

is a very freeing experience.

389

: 00:20:24

So it's so interesting that we

dial back into that playfulness.

390

: 00:20:26

And I wanted to speak to that.

391

: 00:20:28

exercise is a word, again, terminology,

interpretation, exercise is often seen as

392

: 00:20:32

a dirty word, a word that's Oh, it's hard.

393

: 00:20:35

You've quote, got to do it.

394

: 00:20:37

And I'm like, okay, where

do we get this idea from?

395

: 00:20:40

This is just nonsense.

396

: 00:20:41

Because most people I know work

really, really hard, like really hard.

397

: 00:20:44

Parents work really hard.

398

: 00:20:45

So it's not that you're

not good at hard work.

399

: 00:20:47

Most people work way harder in their

real life than they would at a gym.

400

: 00:20:50

they graft.

401

: 00:20:51

So I don't buy it for a second

that people say it's hard work.

402

: 00:20:54

It's different work.

403

: 00:20:56

It might be physical work, but one of

the things I find is we can attach joy

404

: 00:21:00

to it and that playfulness, like you've

alluded to, it's a really magical quality.

405

: 00:21:07

I would say, so I'm going

to tell a short story here.

406

: 00:21:09

In my mid forties, I decided

I needed to move a lot more.

407

: 00:21:12

I'd been teaching yoga for a long time.

408

: 00:21:14

And that's a, it's a good discipline,

but it doesn't cover all what we need

409

: 00:21:17

to cover in terms of movement and

exercise and strength and cardiovascular.

410

: 00:21:21

So I got involved in CrossFit

and I was absolutely humiliated.

411

: 00:21:25

I was pretty rubbish and

I thought I'd be good.

412

: 00:21:28

I was up against these athletes

and a lot of female athletes

413

: 00:21:30

and they were so strong.

414

: 00:21:33

My ego was, thankfully I was able to

check my ego that was wanting to feel

415

: 00:21:37

the shame of being a weak man run out

the door and I could stay with it.

416

: 00:21:41

And thank goodness I did, because actually

what I've learned is that sometimes to

417

: 00:21:45

change who you are, your behaviours,

you have to change your identity.

418

: 00:21:50

And that takes a while.

419

: 00:21:51

Going to the gym once, or yoga class,

and you might say, I don't like it.

420

: 00:21:56

Of course you don't like it.

421

: 00:21:57

It's brand new.

422

: 00:21:58

But if you go for three months...

423

: 00:22:00

and start to build that in, find

some of the joy, some of the

424

: 00:22:04

payoff, and all that good feeling.

425

: 00:22:06

That's what it's really about, and I, I do

worry that we get the, get the idea wrong.

426

: 00:22:10

So many of my female clients

say, Oh, I want to lose weight.

427

: 00:22:14

I say, Why?

428

: 00:22:14

People carrying you around?

429

: 00:22:15

seriously, what does

that actually even mean?

430

: 00:22:18

And we've got to challenge that.

431

: 00:22:19

Yes, you might want better body

composition, but I have found, with

432

: 00:22:24

my work, with my client's work,

and blending into the kind of the

433

: 00:22:27

athlete side of things, how you feel.

434

: 00:22:29

is everything.

435

: 00:22:31

You said it at the top of

our show, healthy and happy.

436

: 00:22:34

And if you feel good, you feel

strong, you feel confident.

437

: 00:22:37

Those are all of those pieces

that make our positive life.

438

: 00:22:40

And that's a very powerful

thing that comes from physical

439

: 00:22:43

movement, all varying times.

440

: 00:22:45

So I'm a, I do push it as a strong

point that we have to give it, I think

441

: 00:22:49

a bit more time, but I love the fact

that you said there, find that joy.

442

: 00:22:52

Cause that's the first link.

443

: 00:22:55

and then that's I think

when it starts to grow.

444

: 00:22:58

Michelle Flynn: Absolutely.

445

: 00:22:58

And I've, I try lots of new things

when I'm coaching clients or when

446

: 00:23:02

I'm doing a talk to a group of people

and we're talking about movement

447

: 00:23:06

and I'm like, tell me what you do.

448

: 00:23:08

And partly I want to know what they

do, but actually it's me wanting

449

: 00:23:12

to know, give me some more ideas.

450

: 00:23:14

And someone said paddle tennis.

451

: 00:23:15

I'm like, Oh, what's that?

452

: 00:23:17

I'm going to go and look

up paddle tennis or boxing.

453

: 00:23:21

Okay, where do you do that?

454

: 00:23:22

Let me give that a try.

455

: 00:23:24

And of course, I'm not going to

like all of it and I'm not going

456

: 00:23:27

to be good at all of it, but we

have got so many different options.

457

: 00:23:30

And one thing that COVID was really

good for was people just getting back

458

: 00:23:34

to walking and enjoying being outdoors.

459

: 00:23:38

And lots of people bought dogs and

continue to do all the dog walking.

460

: 00:23:42

And that's just brilliant because.

461

: 00:23:44

Just start somewhere is the most

important thing and if that is dancing

462

: 00:23:48

around your kitchen, having a kitchen

disco with your teenagers or dancing to

463

: 00:23:53

Peppa Pig with your toddler, it doesn't

matter, it's all movement because the

464

: 00:23:58

people that live the longest in the

blue zones They're the five parts of

465

: 00:24:01

the world where people live the longest.

466

: 00:24:03

They're not at the gym.

467

: 00:24:05

They're, they're walking,

they're getting on a bike.

468

: 00:24:08

They're, they're just moving in every

day, which we've just stopped doing.

469

: 00:24:12

And now we're having to

find the time to exercise.

470

: 00:24:15

Just bring it back into what your life is.

471

: 00:24:18

Sal: Yeah, that's such a good point.

472

: 00:24:19

The blue zones are really

interesting, aren't they?

473

: 00:24:20

and you're, you're right.

474

: 00:24:21

If you look at Blue Zones, they don't

have gyms and stuff, but I think a

475

: 00:24:24

Sardinia suddenly they're quite hilly

and I've seen some of the footage of

476

: 00:24:27

there and there are these older people,

often centenarians, they carry bags

477

: 00:24:30

of shopping up a pretty steep hill.

478

: 00:24:32

Right?

479

: 00:24:32

That's a functional movement.

480

: 00:24:34

And if we are doing functional

movements, day in day out because

481

: 00:24:37

zone two, which is brisk walking zone

five, which is going up the hill hard.

482

: 00:24:42

Carrying stuff, lifting stuff, your

body will adapt and your body will adapt

483

: 00:24:47

if you sit on a soft sofa, our modern

life, I think this is an important

484

: 00:24:51

point, which I've learned more and

more over the recent years, that our

485

: 00:24:54

modern life has so many privileges, we

can, we're on a call now in different

486

: 00:24:59

places, using all this technology, it's

amazing, it's so good and as a listener,

487

: 00:25:02

you can get knowledge from people you

might never be able to spend time with.

488

: 00:25:06

But we might be in a chair for too long

all day, and we might sit then after

489

: 00:25:09

work and watch TV, something like that.

490

: 00:25:12

We have to choose to counter that,

and we have to remember that the

491

: 00:25:16

brain, literally the brain, and

the body is an adaptive system, and

492

: 00:25:20

it will adapt to any conditions.

493

: 00:25:22

So whatever environment we are in,

whether it's an office with chairs,

494

: 00:25:26

or whether it's a walking meeting

that you're having with your, with

495

: 00:25:29

your colleagues, your body will adapt.

496

: 00:25:31

And there was there's so

much data now about walking.

497

: 00:25:34

I, I'm a big walker, I have

dogs, and it's the first one.

498

: 00:25:36

Everyone can walk, right?

499

: 00:25:37

Unless you have a disability,

of course, but if you don't

500

: 00:25:39

have a disability, you can walk.

501

: 00:25:40

It's just a go to.

502

: 00:25:42

There are pressure sensors in our feet.

503

: 00:25:44

They calibrate with the heart.

504

: 00:25:46

They also do with, it's to do with motion.

505

: 00:25:48

So when we travel forwards, our

eyes are tracking left and right all

506

: 00:25:51

the time, tracking left and right.

507

: 00:25:52

We don't see it tracking.

508

: 00:25:54

It's one way of processing

difficult flight state responses

509

: 00:25:58

or even trauma responses.

510

: 00:25:59

So the forward movement of walking and

running is even better, really helps

511

: 00:26:06

process difficult stuff that's going

on in our brain and our, in our sort

512

: 00:26:09

of neurochemistry, all that stuff.

513

: 00:26:10

So when we talk about exercise, we want

to move away from, I think the weight

514

: 00:26:14

gain and start to think about this

positive, healthy, highly functioning

515

: 00:26:18

system so we feel, and perform well.

516

: 00:26:22

Michelle Flynn: But also I think that

you can introduce it into your work.

517

: 00:26:26

So if you are a team leader, don't

do your one to ones, either on the

518

: 00:26:31

screen or sat in the office together.

519

: 00:26:33

Go out, go for a walk.

520

: 00:26:35

I do all of my coaching,

weather depending obviously.

521

: 00:26:38

Either in person walking, often

along Brighton seafront, or if it's

522

: 00:26:44

that we're having a conversation on

the phone, as I did this morning,

523

: 00:26:47

the lady was out for a walk.

524

: 00:26:49

I don't want to sit and stare at

my screen for eight hours a day.

525

: 00:26:53

No one does, and it's not good for us.

526

: 00:26:55

So start to implement it.

527

: 00:26:57

If you are working at home.

528

: 00:26:59

Can you stand up?

529

: 00:27:00

Can you move around?

530

: 00:27:02

I know one gentleman, he gets 15, 000

steps in a day without even leaving

531

: 00:27:07

his home because he takes his calls and

he's standing up and he's moving around.

532

: 00:27:11

trying to find ways to fit it in.

533

: 00:27:14

But also, as you're saying, if you're

having a difficult conversation.

534

: 00:27:17

Whether this is with a friend, a family

member, or someone you work with,

535

: 00:27:21

then often being side by side and not

staring at each other is a much more

536

: 00:27:26

positive way to have that conversation

and get to, we'll bring it again

537

: 00:27:30

back to the positive outcome of it.

538

: 00:27:32

Sal: Yeah, absolutely.

539

: 00:27:33

There's so many benefits.

540

: 00:27:34

In fact, there's so many benefits we do

not have time to talk about this now.

541

: 00:27:38

But it's really just,

okay, do your research.

542

: 00:27:40

There's loads out there.

543

: 00:27:41

There's some amazing books.

544

: 00:27:43

But there is the

fundamentals that if we move.

545

: 00:27:46

I think my equation's like

this, what I share to people.

546

: 00:27:49

If we know we're an adaptive system from

the brain and the body, and we adapt

547

: 00:27:53

to the conditions we are in, Choose the

conditions, which might look like I'll

548

: 00:27:58

do a walk and talk, a walk in meeting,

as you've alluded to, or I will go to

549

: 00:28:02

a running club and start, catch 5k,

whatever it is, but those conditions

550

: 00:28:06

will change how my body and my brain

and everything responds and there's

551

: 00:28:11

so much connected to, so movement.

552

: 00:28:13

A lot of it's working with the cerebellum,

the small bit of the back of the brain,

553

: 00:28:16

but there's found to be pathways connected

to the frontal lobe, which is all

554

: 00:28:19

about executive decisions and function.

555

: 00:28:22

If you want to perform well, you want

your brain sharp and you certainly want

556

: 00:28:26

your brain sharp to stave off things

like cognitive decline as you age.

557

: 00:28:30

Movement is a fundamental piece.

558

: 00:28:33

It's like a non negotiable piece of

brain health and cognitive health.

559

: 00:28:37

So when we think about

our positive life...

560

: 00:28:39

Movement is a non negotiable for me.

561

: 00:28:42

How you do it is negotiable.

562

: 00:28:45

And how you build it up,

I think needs long term.

563

: 00:28:47

And I say this to many of my

clients, forget 12 weeks, just,

564

: 00:28:50

just get so over that idea.

565

: 00:28:52

Go for 12 years.

566

: 00:28:54

And people are like, what?

567

: 00:28:56

And I do say, you are going

to be here in 12 years, right?

568

: 00:28:59

How do you want to be in 12 years?

569

: 00:29:01

And most people tell me they want to

be even, stronger, I don't know, better

570

: 00:29:04

performing, physically well in 12 years.

571

: 00:29:07

the trajectory you want starts today.

572

: 00:29:10

And it's far better to start with

that long term vision because it's so

573

: 00:29:13

sustainable because it's so long even if

you fall off track a bit you come back

574

: 00:29:16

on and I find it's a very powerful way.

575

: 00:29:20

I wanted to sweep now into another area

that you said that you specialize in

576

: 00:29:24

it's sleep and my goodness you know we're

going now the other way the pieces that

577

: 00:29:27

pull this together perhaps you could say

a little more around how you what you do

578

: 00:29:31

with sleep and you work with sleep in your

clients tell could you say more about that

579

: 00:29:36

Michelle Flynn: I love sleep.

580

: 00:29:38

That's right.

581

: 00:29:39

It is literally the first place that

I start with people, because if you

582

: 00:29:44

are not sleeping properly, you will

not make the right food choices.

583

: 00:29:48

You will not want to move your body.

584

: 00:29:50

You will not.

585

: 00:29:51

Not have a good day at work.

586

: 00:29:53

So explaining firstly, the

importance of sleep, and it's not

587

: 00:29:57

just about curing tiredness, it is

connected to pretty much everything.

588

: 00:30:02

So if you want to be happy and

healthy, you need to be sleeping.

589

: 00:30:07

And then looking at the things that

are impacting that, and there are

590

: 00:30:10

four key things that we need to focus

on is, are we getting enough sleep?

591

: 00:30:15

Are we sleeping in a

regular sleep pattern?

592

: 00:30:18

Because our bodies like routine.

593

: 00:30:21

Do we have good quality of sleep?

594

: 00:30:23

So are we getting that

precious deep sleep?

595

: 00:30:25

And are we sleeping

consistently through the night?

596

: 00:30:29

So when I'm working with people, I

look at where maybe the issues are.

597

: 00:30:33

They might be getting the lovely

eight hours, but they still

598

: 00:30:36

wake up tired, which is probably

they're not getting the deep sleep.

599

: 00:30:40

Or they might have no

problem falling asleep.

600

: 00:30:42

But they might wake up at that

danger, danger zone, as I refer

601

: 00:30:46

to at four o'clock in the morning

and they can't get back to sleep.

602

: 00:30:49

So we, it's like being a detective.

603

: 00:30:51

What's the problem and

then how do we solve it?

604

: 00:30:54

And there are some obvious

things that people are aware of.

605

: 00:30:58

Caffeine obviously impacts

sleep, but so does alcohol.

606

: 00:31:01

So does when we.

607

: 00:31:03

So does the darkness of our

bedroom, how stressed we are.

608

: 00:31:07

So giving people the tools to be able

to adjust the choices that they're

609

: 00:31:12

making or for them to understand the

power of breathwork for sleep, which

610

: 00:31:17

sleep and breathwork are the things

that I just, are the superpowers.

611

: 00:31:22

but people are not taught this

and the more that I learn, the

612

: 00:31:26

more that I just can't believe.

613

: 00:31:28

Why we are not teaching these basics

to, to everybody because we're giving

614

: 00:31:33

people the tools to be back in control.

615

: 00:31:36

And that starts with getting a

good night's sleep because we

616

: 00:31:38

all feel better when we wake up

and we know we're fully rested.

617

: 00:31:42

Sal: Yeah, totally agreed.

618

: 00:31:43

And it's so interesting.

619

: 00:31:44

I have to always catch myself and I

certainly speak to it to people I'm

620

: 00:31:48

working with today started yesterday.

621

: 00:31:51

So if you want to be performing well

today or having really good quality

622

: 00:31:55

time with your partner or playing with

your Children or whatever it is, That

623

: 00:31:59

experience, or the experience of today,

started yesterday, and that looks like how

624

: 00:32:03

you were breathing, how you were eating,

what your stress levels were like, to

625

: 00:32:06

how much tech you were using, etc, etc,

right up to sleep, and then if that was

626

: 00:32:09

disrupted, and I know, because I have,

sadly, I have a lot of disrupted sleep,

627

: 00:32:13

I have a dog who's not well now, and he

gets very spooked, and he'll just wake me,

628

: 00:32:17

and I'm a very light sleeper, so I have

to do a lot of work to try and get it in,

629

: 00:32:20

and it doesn't always work for me, it's,

it's, it's one of my challenged areas, for

630

: 00:32:23

sure, and I, I probably get the disruptive

sleep, so I'm, I've got the quality, 10

631

: 00:32:29

o'clock every night or earlier, I'm Mr.

632

: 00:32:31

Early.

633

: 00:32:32

I get the rhythm.

634

: 00:32:33

It's all there, but the disruption

is one to work on and it's not easy.

635

: 00:32:37

I, I'm like Michelle,

we're, we're human beings.

636

: 00:32:39

We, it's not, this isn't

oh, it's all easy for us.

637

: 00:32:41

This is, this is work, to, to eat

well, to move well, to sleep well.

638

: 00:32:45

And it needs constant

tinkering, doesn't it?

639

: 00:32:47

So what would you say?

640

: 00:32:48

I'm going to put myself on the spot here.

641

: 00:32:50

I'm going to say, Hey, I'm, I'm

struggling with my consistency.

642

: 00:32:52

I've told you about being

woken up with the dog.

643

: 00:32:54

What would you, what might

you say would be some good

644

: 00:32:56

strategies that I can think about?

645

: 00:32:59

Michelle Flynn: Okay.

646

: 00:32:59

So the first thing would be understanding

what time you are waking up at.

647

: 00:33:03

So is it the danger zone of four

o'clock in the morning or is it before

648

: 00:33:07

Sal: Sometimes form.

649

: 00:33:08

Okay.

650

: 00:33:09

Michelle Flynn: Okay, so the

reason that people tend to wake up

651

: 00:33:12

around that time is that the brain

is highly active at that time.

652

: 00:33:15

We're filing our memories from the day.

653

: 00:33:18

So I describe our brain like

millions of little light bulbs, and

654

: 00:33:22

we want them off to get good sleep.

655

: 00:33:24

And often at four o'clock in the morning,

it's like someone's turned the dimmer

656

: 00:33:27

switch on and The brain is more active.

657

: 00:33:30

So if you are stressed through work or

anxious about what's happening the next

658

: 00:33:35

day, you're much more likely to wake up at

that point because your brain is already

659

: 00:33:39

active in your situation, having a dog

that's not very well, that's ultimately

660

: 00:33:45

something that you can't control.

661

: 00:33:47

And, you want to make sure that

if your dog needs you, that.

662

: 00:33:50

Obviously you're going to be

there for them, but looking at

663

: 00:33:54

the things that you can control.

664

: 00:33:56

One of the things to help people

sleep the whole way through the

665

: 00:34:00

night is getting into a deeper

sleep at the beginning of the night.

666

: 00:34:04

So when someone is preparing, they've done

their teeth, they've got into bed, they've

667

: 00:34:08

put the phone away and they're now right.

668

: 00:34:11

Now it's time to sleep is to do some nice

breathing patterns, and there are lots of

669

: 00:34:16

different breathing patterns out there.

670

: 00:34:18

Box breathing is the one that I generally

start with when we're talking about

671

: 00:34:23

sleep, which is breathing in for a

count of four, holding your breath

672

: 00:34:27

in for a count of four, out for a

count of four, holding it out for a

673

: 00:34:30

count of four, All through the nose.

674

: 00:34:33

Nasal breathing is key and if someone

is breathing through their mouth

675

: 00:34:37

when they're sleeping, then that

creates a whole different array of

676

: 00:34:41

challenges, which again can be solved.

677

: 00:34:44

So by doing the breathing exercises

whilst you're going to sleep,

678

: 00:34:48

you're going to drop into a deeper

state of sleep more quickly.

679

: 00:34:52

So therefore when you come up

into those lighter phases, which

680

: 00:34:55

you will, that's how sleep works.

681

: 00:34:57

We range throughout the night

through different cycles.

682

: 00:35:00

But because you start at a deeper

point, you're less likely to then

683

: 00:35:05

wake up in those lighter phases.

684

: 00:35:08

So that would be certainly somewhere

that, to be honest, getting people to

685

: 00:35:12

breathe properly with sleep, whether

someone is a good sleeper or not, is

686

: 00:35:16

always a great way to sleep because.

687

: 00:35:19

Stress is often the thing that is

stopping us getting a good sleep

688

: 00:35:22

because of highly active brain, but

also what it does to our nervous system.

689

: 00:35:27

So doing those breathing patterns

would be a starting point.

690

: 00:35:31

as well as you're obviously already

looking at probably the obvious things.

691

: 00:35:35

Is your room cool enough?

692

: 00:35:36

Is it dark enough?

693

: 00:35:38

Is it quiet enough?

694

: 00:35:39

And people can spend a lot

of money on sleep technology.

695

: 00:35:42

There's amazing devices now

where the do, The mattress

696

: 00:35:46

topper will change temperature

as your body temperature changes.

697

: 00:35:49

And for women going through menopause,

our body temperatures are changing.

698

: 00:35:54

So there's a lot of devices

out there, but they don't come

699

: 00:35:57

cheaply, but breath work is free.

700

: 00:36:00

I would definitely start

701

: 00:36:01

with that.

702

: 00:36:02

Sal: yeah, absolutely.

703

: 00:36:02

I believe you.

704

: 00:36:03

So I train with Patrick McKeown, I

think you and partner have, yeah, okay.

705

: 00:36:07

and Patrick McKeown, for those of you who

don't know, does the Oxygen Advantage.

706

: 00:36:10

And Patrick's work is

based on, Pateko system.

707

: 00:36:13

really interesting work.

708

: 00:36:14

And Patrick suggests

that we tape our mouths.

709

: 00:36:17

mouth taping is something I've...

710

: 00:36:18

done.

711

: 00:36:19

And I do it on and off.

712

: 00:36:20

It's curious.

713

: 00:36:20

I go for periods where I take for a while

and then I don't need it for a while.

714

: 00:36:24

It's really interesting, isn't it, that

if we're mouth breathing all night,

715

: 00:36:26

which is predicated towards more of a

sympathetic nervous system response,

716

: 00:36:29

like a higher stimulated response, but

we may not know because we're asleep.

717

: 00:36:33

So taping the mouth is a good one.

718

: 00:36:35

Now, for anyone who's horrified by

the idea, it can sound a bit weird.

719

: 00:36:41

So you can go on Patrick's

website, have a look, Google it.

720

: 00:36:43

We can put some links on the show notes.

721

: 00:36:45

It is one strategy that does work quite

well for people and it has worked for

722

: 00:36:50

me when I've used it and when I feel I

need to use it, I think it's interesting.

723

: 00:36:54

So I know Patrick, when I did some

training with him, he said, if

724

: 00:36:57

you're dysregulated in your breathing

through the day, that's also going

725

: 00:37:01

to go all the way into the night.

726

: 00:37:02

So not just before bed, which is

why practically like both of us,

727

: 00:37:06

of course, we'll always say, let's

check in with, how do you breathe?

728

: 00:37:10

All, all the time.

729

: 00:37:11

So there's strategies and practice,

but it's a bit like going to

730

: 00:37:14

the gym, isn't it, Michelle?

731

: 00:37:15

You can go and do weights or run once

a week, but if you're sitting for

732

: 00:37:18

12 hours a day, it won't negate him.

733

: 00:37:20

And the same with if you have

dysfunctional breathing all day

734

: 00:37:24

and you do a small practice,

it's probably not quite enough.

735

: 00:37:26

So looking at breath work.

736

: 00:37:28

In general, nasal breathing in general,

diaphragm breathing throughout the day,

737

: 00:37:33

regulated breathing is such a powerful

strategy that so many of us overlook,

738

: 00:37:39

but I know I push it all the time

because it works and it's powerful.

739

: 00:37:43

Michelle Flynn: Yes.

740

: 00:37:43

And with that, if people are unsure,

because as you said, you're asleep,

741

: 00:37:47

you don't know what you're doing.

742

: 00:37:48

My question is, do you snore?

743

: 00:37:50

Do you wake up with a dry mouth?

744

: 00:37:52

And lots of people do.

745

: 00:37:54

And as soon as you put that connection,

they realize, Oh, okay, I am mouth

746

: 00:37:59

breathing and during the day, people

who are in jobs that involve a lot of

747

: 00:38:04

talking, so salespeople, whether that's

company CEOs delivering their messages,

748

: 00:38:08

whether that's teachers, customer service.

749

: 00:38:11

When they're talking all

day, they're mouth breathing.

750

: 00:38:13

So again, this is giving people the

awareness that if you're breathing

751

: 00:38:17

through your mouth, you are

activating your stress nervous system.

752

: 00:38:20

So therefore you are going

to be more stressed, which is

753

: 00:38:24

then going to be connected to

sleep and other aspects of your

754

: 00:38:27

Sal: Yeah.

755

: 00:38:28

Such, such important points.

756

: 00:38:29

So hopefully as we're thinking

about our, our constituent pieces

757

: 00:38:32

of a positive life, we've got all

of these pieces coming together.

758

: 00:38:35

It's a tapestry, isn't it?

759

: 00:38:36

It's this kind of collage and tapestry

that sometimes needs a bit of more

760

: 00:38:39

in one area, a bit more in the other,

but there is no, In my experience,

761

: 00:38:44

there's no way that one should negate

all of, one in total, like I'll forget

762

: 00:38:47

about breathing because I do lots

of exercise or I do lots of breath

763

: 00:38:50

work so I don't need to eat well.

764

: 00:38:52

It's no, no, no, no, no, the

human system is multilayered and

765

: 00:38:55

it needs a multiple approach.

766

: 00:38:58

And of course, this is my, my, my

passion for the podcast is to share

767

: 00:39:01

it like our multiple practitioning

approaches we've got here.

768

: 00:39:05

That when we think and connect this

way, we start to move away from

769

: 00:39:08

what sadly is a cultural label.

770

: 00:39:10

belief that things work in isolation.

771

: 00:39:12

You go see the breathing

person for the breath issue.

772

: 00:39:15

And you go see the sleep person.

773

: 00:39:17

It's like, why?

774

: 00:39:19

Humans are systems.

775

: 00:39:21

We are systems.

776

: 00:39:22

It's just basic fact.

777

: 00:39:24

And if we don't treat things as

systems, they don't work that well.

778

: 00:39:27

So if we start to see how they're

interacting with each other, we get

779

: 00:39:30

a much better, better connection.

780

: 00:39:32

And talking of connection, I know

that's something that you speak

781

: 00:39:34

of quite a lot in your work.

782

: 00:39:35

It's certainly about how to have

a positive and healthy life.

783

: 00:39:38

What's, what's your

definition of connection?

784

: 00:39:41

Michelle Flynn: It's not about connecting

with people that you love, which is, I

785

: 00:39:44

think, where I was going to go first,

but actually connecting with people

786

: 00:39:48

that you have shared values with.

787

: 00:39:51

So whether that is through sports,

maybe you play football and you get

788

: 00:39:55

on well with your teammates, whether

this is going to a book club, whether

789

: 00:39:59

it's your yoga class, whether this is.

790

: 00:40:01

That your work, your workmates.

791

: 00:40:03

And one of the hard things now about more

people working at home is less connection.

792

: 00:40:08

And we all felt it during COVID when

suddenly we weren't able to spend time

793

: 00:40:14

with the people that we enjoy, their

company and doing the things that we

794

: 00:40:18

love, how much that had an impact on us.

795

: 00:40:21

So it is.

796

: 00:40:22

So key, loneliness is one of the

biggest causes of depression and

797

: 00:40:27

more and more people are feeling

it in my coaching sessions.

798

: 00:40:30

Regularly, people are telling me I have no

one to talk to and even I have no friends.

799

: 00:40:37

They might be new to an area.

800

: 00:40:39

I moved to a new area 18 months ago.

801

: 00:40:41

I didn't know anybody.

802

: 00:40:43

I was thinking this is

not going to be good.

803

: 00:40:45

I'm a very sociable person.

804

: 00:40:47

I get my energy from being around people.

805

: 00:40:50

So I knew I had.

806

: 00:40:51

To do something about that

and take responsibility myself

807

: 00:40:54

for making those changes.

808

: 00:40:56

'cause I don't have children, so I don't

have the school gates to meet people.

809

: 00:41:01

I do not think we can

underestimate the importance of it.

810

: 00:41:04

And there's even suggestions that.

811

: 00:41:07

It can have as much of an impact

on your health as smoking.

812

: 00:41:11

And, particularly I think with

men where they don't necessarily

813

: 00:41:16

talk, they might go to the pub,

they might talk about football.

814

: 00:41:19

I experienced that the other night at a

dinner party where about half past nine,

815

: 00:41:23

the talk went to Brighton and Hove Albion.

816

: 00:41:25

Absolutely great.

817

: 00:41:26

It was giving men a.

818

: 00:41:27

a conversation to share with

each other, which was lovely.

819

: 00:41:30

But maybe women are talking more

about how they're actually feeling.

820

: 00:41:35

So I just actively encourage

people to find your people.

821

: 00:41:40

And that just one person, it

doesn't have to be hundreds.

822

: 00:41:43

There's only so many really good close

relationships that we can actually invest

823

: 00:41:47

time in, but don't underestimate it.

824

: 00:41:50

And if you're listening to

this and you're feeling lonely.

825

: 00:41:54

Look at what's out there.

826

: 00:41:56

Eventbrite is a great place to go and

connect with people over shared interests.

827

: 00:42:00

There's a group called Run Talk

Run, which is, a group that I

828

: 00:42:04

joined when I first moved to

Brighton and I didn't know anybody.

829

: 00:42:08

And it's, it's not really a running group.

830

: 00:42:10

We do run, but it's very slow.

831

: 00:42:13

it's.

832

: 00:42:14

It's basically about breakfast at the end,

but I made some great friends, people I

833

: 00:42:18

would never have got to meet through that.

834

: 00:42:20

use what is out there to go and connect,

particularly if you are working at home

835

: 00:42:24

on your own, because we're not getting so

much connection as we would through work.

836

: 00:42:29

so we have to be finding

those ways outside of that.

837

: 00:42:32

Sal: Thank you.

838

: 00:42:33

Yeah, that's just such as

such so many important points.

839

: 00:42:36

I had some other guests recently, Leanne

Weaver, who was on a recent podcast.

840

: 00:42:40

So guys, if you listen, you

can search for Leanne's.

841

: 00:42:42

It's about the importance of

connection in the workplace.

842

: 00:42:44

And Leanne has spent a lot of time in

the world, like many of us and seeing

843

: 00:42:48

human connection, seeing the change

from the pandemic, the negatives and

844

: 00:42:51

the positive and a connection being

absolutely fundamental in the workplace.

845

: 00:42:55

And, another guest, April

Baker, who runs, Together Co,

846

: 00:42:58

which is a loneliness charity.

847

: 00:43:00

There's a Episode out about

now or around this episode.

848

: 00:43:03

and it's all about loneliness and

she speaks about social health.

849

: 00:43:08

so important and, and most of us

know, we don't need psychologists

850

: 00:43:11

to tell us this, but when we haven't

got any mates, it's horrible.

851

: 00:43:13

And it really is.

852

: 00:43:15

And I remember that at school.

853

: 00:43:16

If, when I've changed schools

as an adult, I've changed many

854

: 00:43:19

different places I've lived.

855

: 00:43:20

It is tough.

856

: 00:43:21

I think it's harder as an

adult to make new friends than

857

: 00:43:24

it is as a younger person.

858

: 00:43:25

That's my personal experience, but

there are ways to do this, and I

859

: 00:43:29

think we're going back to this same

premise we've spoken about already.

860

: 00:43:32

Modernity, the modern world, social

structures as, as they are, they

861

: 00:43:37

don't make it easy for us to, to be as

functioning and well as we could be.

862

: 00:43:41

So we have to be quite savvy and skillful

and go, Hmm, I feel quite lonely.

863

: 00:43:46

I haven't got anyone I've moved.

864

: 00:43:47

Let's go on, meet up or let's go on a

certain places, Eventbrite, to find where

865

: 00:43:52

we have to have the volition to go for it.

866

: 00:43:56

And I know that's not easy for if

you're listening, you're like, Oh,

867

: 00:43:59

this is so much energy and effort.

868

: 00:44:00

I get it.

869

: 00:44:00

It really is.

870

: 00:44:02

But if you look at the payoff,

what would happen if you did

871

: 00:44:05

meet a really cool person?

872

: 00:44:06

Like you met Michelle and she's

great fun and she's really clever

873

: 00:44:09

and she's just great at the run club.

874

: 00:44:11

Or you, you spent time with me

and oh, he's a cool guy that

875

: 00:44:14

might be so worth the effort.

876

: 00:44:16

And I, I know how I, my, my brain

works because that's what I work with.

877

: 00:44:21

It's I'll take the easy option.

878

: 00:44:22

Yeah, I could do that.

879

: 00:44:23

But that won't give me what I want.

880

: 00:44:26

So I have to find ways to

nudge out of that comfort zone.

881

: 00:44:30

They think it's, I think, seven percent,

the psychologists who bothered to study

882

: 00:44:33

this, it's about seven percent out of

our comfort zone we should be to grow.

883

: 00:44:36

Put it this way, it's, I feel

slightly uncomfortable but

884

: 00:44:40

safe, would be my metric.

885

: 00:44:42

If you feel slightly

uncomfortable but safe, go do it.

886

: 00:44:45

And yes, absolute connection.

887

: 00:44:47

In a modern world of...

888

: 00:44:49

Images, Instagram, and all the,

the, the various, platforms.

889

: 00:44:53

It can seem like everyone's

mates with everyone.

890

: 00:44:56

And yeah, I think you made

such an important point.

891

: 00:44:58

Even if you've just got one good contact,

whoever that is, that might be enough if

892

: 00:45:03

you're having a period of loneliness to

keep that healthy social connection going.

893

: 00:45:07

Michelle Flynn: I saw it myself.

894

: 00:45:08

I decided to set up a women's group.

895

: 00:45:10

I moved to Shoreham by sea, didn't

know anyone, as I said, and decided

896

: 00:45:14

to set up a women's group and

I put something on Facebook and

897

: 00:45:18

that was now about 15 months ago.

898

: 00:45:20

I now have nearly a thousand members.

899

: 00:45:22

Sal: Amazing.

900

: 00:45:24

Michelle Flynn: we meet once a

month and, off the back of that,

901

: 00:45:27

there's lots of other things

that go on and it's just lovely.

902

: 00:45:31

It's all age ranges, everyone

from all different backgrounds,

903

: 00:45:36

it's hosted for free, it doesn't

cost you anything to come.

904

: 00:45:39

If you...

905

: 00:45:40

Wanna sit and drink a

glass of water, no problem.

906

: 00:45:43

we don't want there to be any

blockers, and it is lovely.

907

: 00:45:46

And now when I walk through showroom, it

takes me twice as long to get through it

908

: 00:45:50

because I'm always seeing someone that I

recognize and even just that interaction

909

: 00:45:55

with someone in the street is enough to

charge my battery for the rest of the day.

910

: 00:46:00

if you are sitting here thinking that.

911

: 00:46:02

You're different because you feel lonely.

912

: 00:46:04

You're not.

913

: 00:46:05

My, my, what started as an experiment

very much has proven that, that nearly

914

: 00:46:10

a thousand women, have come forward.

915

: 00:46:12

And my husband has now set

up a men's group in Shoreham,

916

: 00:46:15

exactly the same reason.

917

: 00:46:17

Look, there is a lot happening out

there and if you can't find anything,

918

: 00:46:21

be the person to start it because

you're not the only one thinking it.

919

: 00:46:25

Sal: I'm just so touched by that,

that sentiment and it's, it's just

920

: 00:46:28

so good to hear what you've done.

921

: 00:46:30

So if we are that person, you're like,

can't, I can't, I can't meet people.

922

: 00:46:34

This is a real struggle

and I find it tough.

923

: 00:46:37

What can you take us through that, that,

that process in your mind that went from,

924

: 00:46:41

I'm feeling lonely and I'm in a new place

and I'm going to do something about it.

925

: 00:46:44

Could you take us through how

that process worked for you?

926

: 00:46:47

So maybe we could, embody

that and take that forward.

927

: 00:46:50

Michelle Flynn: So I remember

exactly what happened.

928

: 00:46:53

I was walking and I was listening to a

podcast, fairly standard, and I can't

929

: 00:46:57

remember who it was, but the guy on

the podcast was talking about a men's

930

: 00:47:01

group that had got him through COVID.

931

: 00:47:03

And the connection with these

gentlemen had been his saving.

932

: 00:47:07

And I just thought, hang on a minute.

933

: 00:47:10

Maybe I should start a women's group.

934

: 00:47:12

So I went on to one of the main Shoreham

Facebook groups and I put a post

935

: 00:47:16

out that said, I'm new to Shoreham.

936

: 00:47:18

I've been listening to this podcast

about men's groups, and I think

937

: 00:47:22

I might set up a women's group.

938

: 00:47:23

Is anyone interested?

939

: 00:47:25

And it went from there

suddenly in the comments.

940

: 00:47:27

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

941

: 00:47:29

Then I realized, Oh, now what?

942

: 00:47:32

So I thought.

943

: 00:47:33

I'm going to set up a Facebook

group, Shoreham by Sea Women's

944

: 00:47:36

Group, very inventive name,

and let's see what happens.

945

: 00:47:40

And they just started joining.

946

: 00:47:42

And then I was like, now what?

947

: 00:47:44

So I put a post out and I said,

Monday, the whatever date in July last

948

: 00:47:49

year it was, I'm going to be in the

garden of this pub in Shoreham at 6.

949

: 00:47:53

30.

950

: 00:47:55

Anyone wants to come?

951

: 00:47:56

25 women turned up.

952

: 00:47:58

Makes me quite

953

: 00:47:59

Sal: Oh, I love it.

954

: 00:48:01

Michelle Flynn: Oh goodness.

955

: 00:48:02

It was just like unbelievable and

we all shared our stories and it

956

: 00:48:07

just grew from there and every time

there's always new people that come

957

: 00:48:12

and I've seen this one lovely group

of women become really good friends.

958

: 00:48:16

They're all women.

959

: 00:48:18

probably mid fifties to mid sixties,

mostly single and, watching the fun that

960

: 00:48:24

they now have together and the things that

they go and do just is so heartwarming.

961

: 00:48:30

And the whole acts of kindness being one

of the best ways to make us feel happy,

962

: 00:48:35

I feel so happy with the fact that I've

managed to help other people that almost

963

: 00:48:40

it's a selfish act on my part because I'm

doing it because it makes me feel good.

964

: 00:48:45

It's just been brilliant.

965

: 00:48:46

So it wasn't that difficult.

966

: 00:48:48

It just took putting a post out

there and seeing what happened.

967

: 00:48:52

And they came and they keep coming

and they keep telling other people

968

: 00:48:56

saying we do breathwork on the beach

on a Saturday morning and we'll get up

969

: 00:49:00

to 90 people joining us on the beach.

970

: 00:49:03

And again, it's word of mouth.

971

: 00:49:06

It's people wanting to be part of

something and it is just wonderful.

972

: 00:49:12

So it's not difficult to do.

973

: 00:49:14

Use the technology.

974

: 00:49:16

I know we shouldn't spend too

much time on social media.

975

: 00:49:18

But let's use it for what it's

good for, which is connecting

976

: 00:49:21

people and finding your

977

: 00:49:24

Sal: Really nice, such

a, such a powerful story.

978

: 00:49:26

I was really charmed by that.

979

: 00:49:27

And what I heard as well was in some

ways it was quite simple, wasn't it?

980

: 00:49:31

There was a strong feeling.

981

: 00:49:32

There was like, why not I, why not us?

982

: 00:49:34

And, and let's, let's

go for the first step.

983

: 00:49:37

And what I heard was let's, let's

just put it, let's just get a test in.

984

: 00:49:40

And then the next step, the next step.

985

: 00:49:42

So if, it's very easy to get

overwhelmed with this idea, Oh,

986

: 00:49:45

I've got to do all this thing.

987

: 00:49:46

what about just put a post?

988

: 00:49:47

Does anyone want to meet up for a walk?

989

: 00:49:49

start a bit of a walking club.

990

: 00:49:50

I like walking.

991

: 00:49:50

And, and if three people come, great.

992

: 00:49:53

Such an inspiring story.

993

: 00:49:54

Thank you for sharing that, Michelle.

994

: 00:49:55

And, for those of us around the

Brighton Shore area, we need

995

: 00:49:58

to go find Michelle's group.

996

: 00:49:59

This sounds cool.

997

: 00:50:00

Obviously, I can't go,

because I'm a bloke.

998

: 00:50:01

You'll have to come to

your husband's group.

999

: 00:50:02

Ha, ha, ha.

: 1000

00:50:04,641 --> 00:50:05,061

Michelle Flynn: Come to the

: 1001

00:50:05,061 --> 00:50:05,381

men's

: 1002

00:50:05,381 --> 00:50:06,671

group or to the breathwork on the

: 1003

00:50:06,696 --> 00:50:07,346

Sal: Amazing.

: 1004

00:50:07,346 --> 00:50:08,006

Sounds good.

: 1005

00:50:09,116 --> 00:50:12,276

I would like to bring this, this

episode, cause we've really focused

: 1006

00:50:12,276 --> 00:50:14,016

on some really important parts.

: 1007

00:50:14,016 --> 00:50:18,316

We've spoke about food, movement,

sleep, connection, and I know you speak

: 1008

00:50:18,316 --> 00:50:21,676

about relaxation as one of your final

kind of key pillars of what you do.

: 1009

00:50:21,716 --> 00:50:24,176

And we're coming to the end

of our, our episode now.

: 1010

00:50:25,146 --> 00:50:26,726

It feels the right way to close.

: 1011

00:50:27,352 --> 00:50:30,682

what do you mean by relaxation

and how might we do it well?

: 1012

00:50:31,645 --> 00:50:34,675

Michelle Flynn: This is the one

thing I'm still working on for myself

: 1013

00:50:34,705 --> 00:50:38,535

because my coach is always telling

me off for the fact that I don't

: 1014

00:50:38,585 --> 00:50:43,395

ever stand still and what I think is

relaxing, she doesn't agree with me.

: 1015

00:50:44,795 --> 00:50:48,755

for it again, like movement, it can

be different for different people.

: 1016

00:50:49,025 --> 00:50:52,545

for some people it is lying on

the sofa and watching Netflix

: 1017

00:50:52,635 --> 00:50:55,125

and no problem with that at all.

: 1018

00:50:55,435 --> 00:50:56,255

As long as that's not.

: 1019

00:50:57,505 --> 00:51:01,615

You not sleeping or you not moving,

or it's not interrupting the

: 1020

00:51:01,615 --> 00:51:04,165

other things that are gonna help

you live a more positive life.

: 1021

00:51:04,565 --> 00:51:08,105

for some people that might be

taking a gentle walk, I love to

: 1022

00:51:08,110 --> 00:51:09,965

walk barefoot on, on the grass.

: 1023

00:51:10,185 --> 00:51:12,045

for me, I find that really relaxing.

: 1024

00:51:12,405 --> 00:51:14,025

We don't get into a flow.

: 1025

00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,750

Anymore really, we're so busy.

: 1026

00:51:16,750 --> 00:51:21,940

Our attention is constantly being

grabbed by, adverts or sort of brands

: 1027

00:51:21,940 --> 00:51:24,150

wanting our hard, our hard earned cash.

: 1028

00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:28,730

so sometimes just finding ways to

get into that flow state and reading.

: 1029

00:51:28,900 --> 00:51:33,750

is a really good way to do that and

we so often don't read books anymore.

: 1030

00:51:33,750 --> 00:51:38,290

I have a, an array of books in my house

that I'm still trying to get through.

: 1031

00:51:38,740 --> 00:51:40,690

so it is different for some people.

: 1032

00:51:40,690 --> 00:51:45,260

It will be a massage for some

people, a nice yin yoga class, for

: 1033

00:51:45,260 --> 00:51:49,600

someone else, a nice bath, but I

guess we could call it self care.

: 1034

00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:54,990

And if we're not looking after ourselves,

we can't be strong for anyone else.

: 1035

00:51:54,990 --> 00:51:59,100

And you mentioned this at the beginning

with coaching high performers that

: 1036

00:51:59,100 --> 00:52:03,270

are running businesses and it's all

about the business, but if you're

: 1037

00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:07,920

not well, and if you're not caring

about yourself with whatever that

: 1038

00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:09,930

might be that you find restful.

: 1039

00:52:10,395 --> 00:52:13,485

It might be a really nice conversation

with your best friend that you

: 1040

00:52:13,485 --> 00:52:15,015

haven't spoken to for a while.

: 1041

00:52:15,305 --> 00:52:18,855

there's lots of different parts and

I ask people to create a calm list.

: 1042

00:52:19,515 --> 00:52:23,825

So I say, I want 10 things on that list

because if you feel stressed and you

: 1043

00:52:23,825 --> 00:52:27,895

want to feel calm, you need to know

what is going to make you feel that way.

: 1044

00:52:27,895 --> 00:52:29,855

So what is on that list?

: 1045

00:52:29,855 --> 00:52:34,105

And it can be a herbal tea, a

scented candle, cuddling a dog.

: 1046

00:52:34,475 --> 00:52:38,165

Listening to the sound of the

waves, I often, that's my morning

: 1047

00:52:38,175 --> 00:52:41,175

as I love to go and listen to the

sort of the waves on the beach.

: 1048

00:52:41,515 --> 00:52:46,975

So find your thing, but make sure that

you are doing something for you every

: 1049

00:52:46,975 --> 00:52:49,535

day, preferably without the phone.

: 1050

00:52:49,835 --> 00:52:54,795

15 minutes can recharge that battery to

give you the energy to go and be good at

: 1051

00:52:54,905 --> 00:52:56,885

everything else that your day needs you to

: 1052

00:52:57,035 --> 00:52:58,380

Sal: Yeah, such, such good points.

: 1053

00:52:58,410 --> 00:53:01,280

Downregulation is a technical

term we might use for him

: 1054

00:53:01,490 --> 00:53:03,811

and we have to downregulate.

: 1055

00:53:03,841 --> 00:53:08,111

And in a world of hyper stimulation,

certainly if you are running a

: 1056

00:53:08,111 --> 00:53:11,911

business, running a family, running a

life, there are so many things to do.

: 1057

00:53:11,911 --> 00:53:15,081

There are so many stimulus points

which trigger, the brain, our

: 1058

00:53:15,081 --> 00:53:16,551

visual system, dopamine system.

: 1059

00:53:16,551 --> 00:53:18,011

We are, we're charged a lot.

: 1060

00:53:18,503 --> 00:53:22,113

Two, if you don't downregulate,

you actually change the

: 1061

00:53:22,113 --> 00:53:23,353

baseline of your stress levels.

: 1062

00:53:23,353 --> 00:53:24,943

So you actually raise that baseline.

: 1063

00:53:24,953 --> 00:53:25,923

So you're constantly on.

: 1064

00:53:25,963 --> 00:53:29,363

Wired is a term some people use, and I

think some of us will recognize that term.

: 1065

00:53:32,474 --> 00:53:34,954

equals more upregulation.

: 1066

00:53:35,389 --> 00:53:37,739

So in sports science and the strength

and conditioning world, which I

: 1067

00:53:37,739 --> 00:53:42,379

also straddle, if you want to be

physically strong or physically well,

: 1068

00:53:42,549 --> 00:53:44,879

you have to downregulate properly.

: 1069

00:53:45,299 --> 00:53:47,889

So you, if you do your strength

work, for instance, and you're really

: 1070

00:53:47,889 --> 00:53:50,829

training your physical systems to

become a stronger physical person.

: 1071

00:53:51,569 --> 00:53:54,229

If you don't downregulate with breath

work directly after your training

: 1072

00:53:55,109 --> 00:53:59,689

practice and proper sleep and proper

downregulation, you don't grow

: 1073

00:53:59,689 --> 00:54:03,469

new tissue, new mitochondria, new

physical parts that you need to be.

: 1074

00:54:03,979 --> 00:54:05,319

upregulated and strong.

: 1075

00:54:05,859 --> 00:54:09,849

So I think if we misunderstand

the value of downregulation, we

: 1076

00:54:09,849 --> 00:54:11,479

can think, Oh, it's, I'm so busy.

: 1077

00:54:12,019 --> 00:54:16,009

And by the way, if you say

I'm busy, I'm coming for you.

: 1078

00:54:17,329 --> 00:54:17,839

I get it.

: 1079

00:54:17,869 --> 00:54:18,879

We've all got a lot to do.

: 1080

00:54:18,879 --> 00:54:19,609

And I'm too.

: 1081

00:54:19,609 --> 00:54:21,219

I've got lots and lots

of things I like to do.

: 1082

00:54:21,219 --> 00:54:23,239

I have my business and it's brilliant fun.

: 1083

00:54:23,689 --> 00:54:26,079

And sometimes it can be a challenge

because it's quite overwhelming.

: 1084

00:54:26,079 --> 00:54:26,999

There are many things to do.

: 1085

00:54:27,059 --> 00:54:27,789

Modern life, right?

: 1086

00:54:28,519 --> 00:54:33,209

But be very careful of the narrative

of, I'm so busy, because that can

: 1087

00:54:33,209 --> 00:54:37,599

be a mantra that means, I can't

relax, it's not okay to downregulate,

: 1088

00:54:37,849 --> 00:54:39,379

I don't give myself permission.

: 1089

00:54:39,529 --> 00:54:43,239

And that's one thing I would say in my

experience, give yourself permission.

: 1090

00:54:43,789 --> 00:54:46,679

Know that you need to

downregulate, and know that that

: 1091

00:54:46,679 --> 00:54:48,359

busyness can be turned down.

: 1092

00:54:49,030 --> 00:54:50,340

Michelle Flynn: Yeah,

there's a great quote.

: 1093

00:54:50,500 --> 00:54:54,390

Arnold Schwarzenegger has written

a book called Be Useful and he's

: 1094

00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:59,700

talking about time and I won't quote

him exactly because he uses a bit

: 1095

00:54:59,700 --> 00:55:04,140

of language, but the basics of what

he's saying is that we're all busy.

: 1096

00:55:04,300 --> 00:55:05,660

But we all have time.

: 1097

00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:11,750

And if you were to write one page every

day for 365 days, you've written a book.

: 1098

00:55:12,310 --> 00:55:17,490

so we are really busy and life has never

been busier than it is, but this is about

: 1099

00:55:17,500 --> 00:55:23,390

the priorities of how we spend our time

and two minutes of breathing exercises.

: 1100

00:55:23,995 --> 00:55:25,255

Can make a difference.

: 1101

00:55:25,495 --> 00:55:28,255

Eating one extra vegetable

can make a difference.

: 1102

00:55:28,260 --> 00:55:32,965

Having one extra glass of water, having

a cuddle with your child, or your

: 1103

00:55:32,965 --> 00:55:38,485

partner or your friend, whatever it is,

it's the small things that all add up.

: 1104

00:55:38,995 --> 00:55:39,475

And.

: 1105

00:55:39,815 --> 00:55:43,255

It's not about running

marathons or about going vegan.

: 1106

00:55:43,255 --> 00:55:46,365

If you want to run marathons

and you're a vegan, great.

: 1107

00:55:46,685 --> 00:55:47,705

Absolutely.

: 1108

00:55:47,745 --> 00:55:49,495

They take such dedication.

: 1109

00:55:50,465 --> 00:55:52,745

Let's just start with the simple stuff.

: 1110

00:55:53,065 --> 00:55:58,005

It's a few more steps, a few more

minutes of sleep, a little bit less time

: 1111

00:55:58,005 --> 00:56:02,705

on the phone because, again, this is

around the James hit, James Clear and

: 1112

00:56:02,825 --> 00:56:05,465

building habits is that sort of, he says.

: 1113

00:56:06,080 --> 00:56:09,730

Start with something that you can

do even on your most difficult day.

: 1114

00:56:10,255 --> 00:56:10,825

Sal: Amazing.

: 1115

00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:11,960

Michelle Flynn: I think that's a good

: 1116

00:56:12,025 --> 00:56:12,605

Sal: I love that.

: 1117

00:56:13,105 --> 00:56:16,925

We are going to pull it to a close here,

so we hope you can go and downregulate.

: 1118

00:56:17,415 --> 00:56:17,985

Take some time.

: 1119

00:56:19,383 --> 00:56:22,593

and I always encourage my listeners,

so if you've taken points on this

: 1120

00:56:22,593 --> 00:56:26,103

and you are someone like me, you

have to write it down, Scrabble back,

: 1121

00:56:26,103 --> 00:56:29,103

go find the marker on the what what

did you, what did you wanna hear?

: 1122

00:56:29,103 --> 00:56:29,973

What did Michelle say?

: 1123

00:56:29,973 --> 00:56:30,873

What did, what did I say?

: 1124

00:56:30,993 --> 00:56:32,463

What was what struck you?

: 1125

00:56:32,643 --> 00:56:35,743

Capture it, integrate it, implement it.

: 1126

00:56:35,803 --> 00:56:38,923

Because to be well and healthy

and happy, and have a positive

: 1127

00:56:38,923 --> 00:56:40,933

life, it takes a little action.

: 1128

00:56:41,278 --> 00:56:42,618

continuous steps every day.

: 1129

00:56:42,668 --> 00:56:45,298

So I hope you are able

to take that forward.

: 1130

00:56:45,618 --> 00:56:46,818

Dear listener, thank you.

: 1131

00:56:46,938 --> 00:56:48,508

Absorb, take it to the next one.

: 1132

00:56:48,518 --> 00:56:52,488

Michelle, thank you for your time and

knowledge and I'll speak to you all again.

: 1133

00:56:52,578 --> 00:56:52,978

Take care.

: 1134

00:56:55,472 --> 00:56:57,122

Sal Jefferies: Thank you

so much for listening.

: 1135

00:56:57,392 --> 00:57:00,962

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

: 1136

00:57:00,962 --> 00:57:04,052

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

: 1137

00:57:05,252 --> 00:57:08,252

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

: 1138

00:57:08,492 --> 00:57:17,162

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

: 1139

00:57:17,462 --> 00:57:20,822

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

: 1140

00:57:21,767 --> 00:57:24,647

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

: 1141

00:57:24,647 --> 00:57:29,327

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

: 1142

00:57:29,327 --> 00:57:32,717

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

: 1143

00:57:33,587 --> 00:57:35,507

Until the next time, take care.