How we can go from Pain to Power as a man with Yaron Engler

Sal: 00:00:20

and welcome.

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I am delighted to be

joined by my guest Yaron.

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Yaron Engler is joining me today.

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He's the founder of Ambient Men

and he's a specialist with working

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with men in a whole host of fields.

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But I'm going to let Yaron go

deeper and explain that fully

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when we get into conversation.

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And our conversation point

today is to talk about how

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we can go from pain to power.

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So that's quite a, quite an interesting

trajectory and I'm really Excited

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to talk to Yaron about his work with

men and how he's taken them on that.

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Plus I have some

interesting points on that.

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So we're going to jump straight in.

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So first of all, Yaron, welcome.

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Really

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good to have

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you,

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Yaron Engler: Thank you, my friend.

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It's really great to be

here, and I look forward

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to see what we're going to explore.

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Sal: me too.

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So let's, let's really get clear when

we're talking about pain and power.

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Again, they're words

that can take us places.

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What's your definition

of, of pain and power?

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Yaron Engler: First of all, I really

like the fact that you're starting

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the conversation with, with clarifying

definitions, because I think a lot of

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times we talk about things and we don't

really know what we're talking about,

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so it would be great to experience that.

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I haven't thought about it

before, so I'm going to share my

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spontaneous, in the moment answer.

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Pain for me That's a really

interesting question.

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Pain for me is a burden that can be

either a teacher or a source of suffering.

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I like that.

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I didn't know it before.

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Power for me...

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Power for me is freedom.

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Sal: Perfect.

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Really, really, really eloquent.

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And as we say, it's so, for me, it's

so important to get clear on what do we

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mean by a phrase or a term, because it

could mean something different for me as

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it does to you and to, to anyone else.

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So it's so important to, to get clear.

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So for me, pain, pain is something

which is highly sensitive.

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I'm sensicurity.

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Um, it hurts.

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I found it interesting hearing

what you said about it being

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a teacher and I you're right.

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It can also be a, uh, for me

it can be a suppressor as well.

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It can become, it pushes me down.

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So it's a, it's a powerful force.

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I guess it's how that force is going.

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Is it pushing us down or pushing

us forwards is something that I'm

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interested in, in, in going into.

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And power.

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Well, power is an

interesting word in my term.

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Power sometimes makes me think of

energy and drive and moving forwards.

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And other times it can

feel a bit dominating.

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So a little like a shadow and

light, there's sort of perhaps

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different aspects of power.

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Again, it feels to me.

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How is it applied?

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You know, what's the force behind

the there would be my interpretation.

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So um, So we've kind of got some idea

of where we're talking about now.

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So perhaps we'll start,

let's take We're men.

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Um, being a man in 2023 unusual thing.

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Certainly I'm, I'm over

mid, uh, mid century now.

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I've been around for, on

this planet a long time.

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And it's a funny old thing being a man.

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Because when I grew up, I was...

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Given all these messages, not explicitly

in a handbook, but you know, by my

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parent, my dad, and culture, and

those messages don't fit today.

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That's what I find.

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They don't fit today.

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Some of them do, but

then some of them don't.

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And I've had to do a lot of self work

to question would be, certainly to

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you personally, how have you adapted

yourself as a man of the, of the world

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from being a young boy when, when

you grew up to the man you are today?

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How have you

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Yaron Engler: That's a good question.

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it's interesting that it comes, but

I think Payne was an amazing guide.

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At the beginning, something put to push

away, and to try to avoid as much as I can

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until I understood in my early twenties,

I understood that, as I said before,

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pain can be an amazing teacher and, and,

and, and a door to a lot of wisdom and a

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lot of freedom, which again, as I said,

power, power is an interesting word.

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And I'm sure we're going

to touch that more.

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I didn't have positive role

models as a man, as a child.

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I'm, I'm, I don't think so.

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I saw what I saw.

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I had an inner truth that there was

something better than that, but it's

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hard to really apply that when we,

when I didn't see external examples,

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but there was something, you know,

I suffered from depression from

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being a teenage, for many years.

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And in my case, it was also physical.

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So I would get stuck with my neck

or with my back for two, three days.

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I could not move.

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And it happened every two, three months.

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I would get stuck like that.

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And in my mid twenties, through

a brother of a friend who later

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on became my girlfriend, he

introduced me to Greenberg method.

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I don't know if you heard

about Greenberg method.

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But Greenberg method, is a form...

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they do the analysis through your feet

and then they start to work on the body.

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And it's all about connection

between body, mind, spirit.

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It's, you learn how through

breath and work with your muscles,

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you can really release pain.

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And it's incredible since I did that,

work, I really learned how to release

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pains and find more freedom in me.

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So that was part of the release.

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of negativity that I had, but then

also, I think another very important

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milestone for me, apart from acknowledging

that pain is a I think in my case,

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I didn't really have healthy role

models as, as a man, as a child.

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And, I always wanted to find them.

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And it wasn't easy.

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So there are two layers for the

answer that I'm going to give you.

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One is, I think the thing that

really helped me is to find, role

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healthy role models more or less 10

years ago, actually, when I heard

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about this concept of men's work,

which is what drove me into that.

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Because I suddenly saw men that

had this very strong capacity to.

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being what I would call the masculine

traits, you know, very direct, strong

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with business, strong with strategy and,

you know, all these kinds of traits.

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But at the same time, they had

very easy access to compassion,

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to love, to, to self awareness.

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And I really liked that overall.

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spectrum that I saw from a man,

because for me, it was used to be

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either the macho guy or the kind of

the losery guy or something like this.

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So that's one thing.

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The other thing that is in a way

contradicts the idea of being a

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man is I suffered from depression

for many, many years in my life.

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And after, you know, it started

when I was a teenager and.

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In 2010, I learned once and for all

to let go of my depressions and that

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happened through a deep spiritual path

that I took, which helped me see the,

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disconnection from identity and that

everything that we add to the story

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that we, you know, we live in a story.

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Our life is a story.

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But it's completely imagination.

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So I can say many things about

myself, I am a man, I am a

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father, I am I am whatever.

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But it doesn't really mean anything from

that space of depth of spirituality.

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So in a way, disconnecting from

the idea of a man as well helped

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me become the man that I am

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right now.

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So there is a contradiction there.

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Sal: I love that.

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A contradiction I would probably also

a paradox, which is of course a, uh,

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holding two, two opposites at the same

time, which feels like there's a lot of

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that in the world, but we don't see it.

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Our brain slash mind is very much built

on binary, certainly in our Western

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culture, we're very much binary thinking.

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It's either this or that.

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You're a man or you're a woman.

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You're a tough guy or you're a pussy.

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Whatever these binary terms are.

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But that's not actually true in my

experience of life, certainly in

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my personal and my professional.

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And I'm really curious that you

said there, but that unhooking of

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identity, that's such an interesting

one because identity, you know,

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it's, we, we defend it, don't we?

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We're like, I am whatever,

I'm this, I'm that.

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And if someone says that

you're not, it's very hurtful.

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And yet.

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It's really interesting if we challenge

that assumption, that, that construct,

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that story we've either told ourselves or

somehow, you know, like, like clothing,

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just managed to put all these clothes on

and like, Oh, I felt this is who I am.

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Can I, I'd love to go, because the

word spiritual again can take us

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off into different terminology.

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What's your interpretation of spiritual?

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So we can understand how you

perhaps got to, to, to that

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Yaron Engler: You have

really good questions.

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You know, you asked me to define

things that I use on a daily

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basis, yet I never really defined.

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So what is spirituality?

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I think my interpretation of spirituality

would be an inquiry for truth.

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Like, you know, instead of protecting

my identity, I prefer to spend my

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time to feel what is true to me,

because when I find what is true to

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me and I can apply it, I feel free.

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And if I said before, freedom is power.

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When I try to protect my identity, I

am getting lost in ego, in a lot of

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things that I found really damaging,

to be honest, to my life experience.

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So, for me, the spirituality...

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is a beautiful inquiry again,

yeah, to, to find some freedom

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and peace and

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quiet.

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Sal: Wow, That's really That's

such a powerful way interpretation.

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I'm really touched by that.

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Um, I kind of want to speak to

my interpretation of spiritual as

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well, because when I was younger, I

thought it was all about a religion.

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Then I just realized that

religion was a particular thing.

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And I was lucky enough to be involved

in, Dwighter Vedanta, which is the, uh,

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ancient Sanskrit practice of non duality.

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And I got involved in that many years ago.

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And it did a similar thing to try and

inquire what is truth and, and to go

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beyond the assumptions that we all have.

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And in many ways we can't

live without assumptions.

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Otherwise it'd be a very confusing world.

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But to believe the assumptions are

true, perhaps is dangerous or limiting.

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And I'm always fascinated to hear when

we, we challenge something or question

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and say, Yeah, but is that really true?

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Or perhaps is it really true

in my experience can open us up

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because if someone's in pain and

wants to change, it feels like

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there needs to be some movement.

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There needs to be some movement either

with the pain or out of the pain.

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But if there's no movement, it's

you know, you're stuck in that

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that and it's not a nice place.

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So when we think about moving out of

pain, what other powerful ways are you

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working either on yourself or with the

guys that you work with to help that

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trajectory, that moving out of pain?

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So using it as a doorway,

as you said, what

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Yaron Engler: It's, it's interesting,

it's to do the complete opposite.

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It's, instead of moving out of

pain, it's to lean into the pain.

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I think most of the sources of

our problems in life is by the

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fact that we are avoiding things.

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A question that I would ask the

people that I work with, the same as

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I ask myself, is what am I avoiding?

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And the thing that I'm avoiding,

that's what I would say, okay.

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It's time to lean into that, because if

I'm avoiding a tough conversation with my

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wife because we have tension between us,

I can continue to avoid it and avoid it.

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The relationship is going to get more

tangled and more tangled and more

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tangled, and we see the outcome of so

many divorces, so many, separations,

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so many toxic relationships, so many.

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The commonality of talking about, the

wife or the husband that I, Oh yeah, kind

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of talking behind the back as if it's a

burden instead of something that it should

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be like, wow, I really love my wife.

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I really am connected.

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So if, if I'm avoiding to have

the tough conversation, I'm

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just leading to more pain.

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If instead of avoiding that pain,

I'm leaning in and I'm having,

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Hey, something isn't working here.

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And my voice can be a little bit,

you know, trembling and whatever,

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and I can be shaky, whatever the

trauma is, but I'm leaning in and

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through that I can release the pain.

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Same thing with work.

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There is this phone call, or that

email, or this conversation that you

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are avoiding, and that creates you to

feel more lost, and more disengaged,

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and more pissed off, and more resentful.

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If instead, like, no, I'm going to lean

in and I'm going to make that phone call

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and I'm going to allow myself to face

that person, whatever, and, and, and in

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the work that I do with men, it's a lot

about how to embody the traits that you

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want to have in those conversations.

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So it goes deeper than that, but it's

always, instead of going out of pain,

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I'm inviting people to go in now.

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It's not a surprise that

there are not a lot of.

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Men that are willing to go there.

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you know, there is a lot of stuff that

invites us to kind of go around it

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and play, you know, around the bushes.

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This is not my approach because

I didn't find it useful.

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I found it very, very useful to lean

in and deal with stuff for real.

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At the same time of doing that

spiritual practice where you start to

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really get to know, and I'll choose

my word carefully, what you are, not

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who you are, the who is again, that

identity, but to understand what I am.

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and move my life from there.

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This is how I deal with pain.

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I found it super

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Sal: It really is profound.

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It's, it's work.

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I've had to get involved in myself.

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I've trained as a psychotherapist,

so psychotherapy is a, is a,

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generally a going to the darker

places in a, with a person.

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I, I've moved slightly on from

the psychotherapeutic model now

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to a more of a coaching model, but

I've two done years of therapy and

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looking at the pain and, and pain's.

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An interesting thing, I, I'm, I'm

fascinated in neuropsychology,

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like how the, the physical system

of our mind body works as well.

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And pain is a very.

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Acute signal.

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That's what it is really.

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If we talk about, you know, how the body's

responding, it's a very acute signal.

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We, we have nociceptors

in our, in our body.

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So they are actually, they're

often called, pain receptors,

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but I heard someone recently

described them as threat receptors.

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And I thought it was quite interesting

about these parts of our body, which are

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saying, Hey, there's a threat, whether

it's, you could burn your arm on a hot

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stove or you could bang your hand on

a solid wall or something like that.

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But when we think of pain, if

it's a signal, It's a sign.

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Signal and sign are the same thing.

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So what is the sign telling us?

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And that's what I'm hearing you're,

you're, you're helping people figure out.

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So what is that sign?

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And it's interesting because we often

have a reaction to pain, which is quite...

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well, it's neurological, right?

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You know, if you, if you, the classic

in your kid, you burn your hand on

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the stove, you pull your hand away.

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It happens before thinking.

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I think it happens in the

20th, 20th of a second.

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It's a really quick time, but it's before

the thinking brain comes online and

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says, that's, that's not good for us.

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So I do question and I wonder if our

response to, say, emotional pain, say,

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a difficult conversation with partner

or someone at work, if we're having

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the same, almost like the amygdala part

of the brain, the old brain saying,

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like, alert, stay away, we need to

get the front part, the, the present

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part online to say, what's the signal?

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What is that?

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Rather than just let's move away from it.

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Because if we keep moving away

from pain, we're being hunted,

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we're being chased by the pain.

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And I think that's a really interesting

point that I'd love your thoughts on.

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Yaron Engler: Yeah, it's, I

really like what you just said.

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And for me, what I'm

noticing, let's take fire.

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You know, if I put my hand into

a fire, I immediately go away

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because it's, it hurts physically.

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But we also have the understanding

that fire is great for us, and we

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use it for many, many different ways.

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So there is the differentiation there

between, okay, it can cause pain.

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But there are more benefits for some

reason, and especially with men, because

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of stigma, because of society, because

of social norms, because whatever it

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is, because of, again, not so great role

models, male role models, when it comes

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to emotional pain, because it's also a

little bit less tangible, you don't really

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see it, we don't see it, when we get the

burn, we run away and we don't go back

308

: 00:16:24

anymore, because we're not really given

the tools to deal with emotional pain,

309

: 00:16:29

especially as men, you know, the, the

usual, cliches of, you know, don't be a

310

: 00:16:34

pussy, man up, all these kinds of things.

311

: 00:16:38

And I always say that because it is

important also, we are being taught in

312

: 00:16:41

school, you know, what happened in 1827,

how to calculate angles of triangle, never

313

: 00:16:46

use this kind of stuff in life, you know,

it would be more useful if they teach us

314

: 00:16:49

how to put a shelf straight on the wall,

how to create saving accounts and how to

315

: 00:16:56

be more emotionally capable to handle the

challenges in life, because in the end of

316

: 00:17:01

the day, this is what we are all craving.

317

: 00:17:04

We are craving to love and be loved,

yet wherever I look around me, most

318

: 00:17:10

people are guided by fear, not by love.

319

: 00:17:14

And for me, this is another great question

that I ask myself on a regular basis.

320

: 00:17:20

Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

321

: 00:17:24

And when it comes to pain, I can choose.

322

: 00:17:26

Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

323

: 00:17:30

The choice is extremely obvious for me.

324

: 00:17:33

Yet.

325

: 00:17:35

The choice that the majority of us take

is, is acting from fear, which caused more

326

: 00:17:40

fear, which is called more pain, which

is caused more fear, which is caused.

327

: 00:17:43

It's a chain.

328

: 00:17:45

So, yeah.

329

: 00:17:46

Sal: For those who follow my

podcast and like my little snippets

330

: 00:17:50

of neurosciences, there's a...

331

: 00:17:54

There's three levels to the brain,

not literally, but this is an old

332

: 00:17:56

piece of idea called the triune brain.

333

: 00:17:58

There's the very old part, which

is, they call it the lizard brain.

334

: 00:18:01

So it's the bit that runs a

heart rate, blood pressure,

335

: 00:18:04

lungs, breathing, responses.

336

: 00:18:06

Then the mammal brain, which is

the emotional center of the limbic

337

: 00:18:09

brain, and then the neocortex.

338

: 00:18:11

I'm just going very quickly because

we can get caught up in neuroscience.

339

: 00:18:14

But what we forget as human

systems with our iPhones and our

340

: 00:18:19

businesses and our cultures is

that we're still animals at heart.

341

: 00:18:22

We're still, we've got all those

primary systems and the primary systems

342

: 00:18:27

are called primary for a reason.

343

: 00:18:28

Not only were they first, they act first.

344

: 00:18:31

And I think it takes some from

really self aware as you said

345

: 00:18:34

about being spiritual, being really

questioning about how am I reacting?

346

: 00:18:40

Who is reacting here as well,

is another question I ask.

347

: 00:18:43

Is it me?

348

: 00:18:43

Is it my dad?

349

: 00:18:44

Is it an idea of a bloke

that I think I should be?

350

: 00:18:48

If we don't stop and question,

we are in a state of reaction.

351

: 00:18:53

If we do stop and question, and of

course use our breath, and like,

352

: 00:18:57

literally breathe for a little bit, like,

let's get part of that mind or brain

353

: 00:19:02

online to say, Where am I coming from?

354

: 00:19:04

Love, fear, who's responding now, then

we don't get out of that cycle of pain.

355

: 00:19:09

Do you know another thing that

strikes me, Yaron, is that I

356

: 00:19:12

remember when I was a kid, I was,

I've always been highly sensitive.

357

: 00:19:16

Now that used to be it,

ribs, like sensitive.

358

: 00:19:19

Now I realize it's a skill set.

359

: 00:19:21

It's like having 4D technology.

360

: 00:19:23

I'm aware of everything, but it

can be overwhelming sometimes.

361

: 00:19:27

But when you're super sensitive,

like you feel a lot, like literally,

362

: 00:19:30

I mean, I feel a lot physically

and mentally, emotionally.

363

: 00:19:33

It's can be overwhelming,

but it can also be revealing.

364

: 00:19:36

And if you show, and my experience

of being a boy when I grew up in the

365

: 00:19:40

seventies of showing, if you showed stuff,

which was anything other than what the

366

: 00:19:44

social construct was, rather than be

tough, and it wasn't tough, there is this.

367

: 00:19:50

I know I got laughed at.

368

: 00:19:51

I can remember peers being

laughed at for stuff.

369

: 00:19:53

And there's that quality

of shaming that can go on.

370

: 00:19:56

Whether kids know this or whether

people know this, there's something

371

: 00:19:59

wrong with you because you've

expressed an emotion, a feeling.

372

: 00:20:03

And shame's something I've had

to do loads of work on myself.

373

: 00:20:06

I continue to do work on it.

374

: 00:20:07

I talk about it a lot with people,

certainly the men I work with.

375

: 00:20:10

I'd like to get your insights

on shame because it's this...

376

: 00:20:14

Sneaky, powerful, kind of damaging energy

or emotion, whatever we want to call it.

377

: 00:20:20

And it really, for me, has stopped me so

many times in my life until I faced it.

378

: 00:20:24

Like you were saying, face your pain.

379

: 00:20:26

What would you, perhaps you could

share more on your thoughts about

380

: 00:20:29

shame and how that works with something

with men and moving from pain.

381

: 00:20:33

Yaron Engler: It's really interesting that

you're asking that because we literally

382

: 00:20:36

just this on Tuesday we did a session with

one of the groups around shame, and it's

383

: 00:20:40

a very challenging session, but beautiful

because again, it's leaning in and on the

384

: 00:20:46

other side, guys suddenly feel like, ah,

I'm free from this thing that I've been

385

: 00:20:50

holding with me inside me that nobody

knew for 20 years, suddenly like it.

386

: 00:20:54

doesn't matter anymore.

387

: 00:20:55

And it's, and there are two

things I would like to mention.

388

: 00:20:58

first of all, it's important to

differentiate between shame and guilt.

389

: 00:21:03

because they're, they're similar.

390

: 00:21:04

And I think a lot of times we mix them.

391

: 00:21:07

Shame is more connected to kind of an

understanding, feeling that something

392

: 00:21:12

is wrong with me as a being, you know,

something was the way I was built

393

: 00:21:17

is wrong, it's kind of very, very,

ingrained in the sense of beings.

394

: 00:21:21

I am, something isn't right about me.

395

: 00:21:23

Guilt is very similar, but it's more

about an act, some action that I.

396

: 00:21:28

did.

397

: 00:21:29

So with guilt, it's easier to, there

is someone that you can, again,

398

: 00:21:31

lean in and have a conversation,

apologize, clean the thing.

399

: 00:21:35

With shame, it's more about

your relationship with yourself.

400

: 00:21:38

And then you probably know Brene Brown.

401

: 00:21:40

She has a sentence, which

I think is just bang on.

402

: 00:21:44

And it says, shame cannot

survive being spoken.

403

: 00:21:49

I have seen this so many times that when

we allow ourselves to speak our shame in

404

: 00:21:53

a safe space where we can just share this

thing, and it's amazing with the groups of

405

: 00:21:57

men because a lot of times I see men that

literally held this really dark, horrible,

406

: 00:22:04

painful, suffer causing thing in their

being for literally 5, 10, 20 more years,

407

: 00:22:13

speak it out, And And the funny thing

that happens, first of all, feel free.

408

: 00:22:18

There is a little bit of like, oh,

shit, this is like, a bit scary.

409

: 00:22:20

But, but then once it's done, they feel

free, but also this, this realization that

410

: 00:22:26

they suddenly see, they will see in the,

in the space, three, four, five other men

411

: 00:22:30

saying me too, and then you understand

that this dark thought that you had about

412

: 00:22:35

yourself, that you are ugly, that you're

stupid, that you're not good enough,

413

: 00:22:38

that you're whatever it is that the

is, it's like, oh, shit, I'm not alone.

414

: 00:22:43

And it's actually just common.

415

: 00:22:45

And so on.

416

: 00:22:46

And I think it's really important because

so many of us, and I used to be there, I'm

417

: 00:22:51

no longer in that space because I've done

a lot of work on myself, but if you are

418

: 00:22:54

someone listening to this and you judge

your, the way you think, the way you feel

419

: 00:23:00

as something is wrong with you, trust me,

if somebody would put a mic on anybody's

420

: 00:23:06

thoughts, we would all be either in

prison or in a mental asylum, all of us.

421

: 00:23:11

So everything is okay.

422

: 00:23:14

and again, take this.

423

: 00:23:15

Shame cannot survive being spoken.

424

: 00:23:18

That's a great tool that I believe

425

: 00:23:19

Sal: absolutely Beautiful, Yes.

426

: 00:23:20

I know Brennan Brown's work.

427

: 00:23:21

I've used it.

428

: 00:23:22

I've cited it.

429

: 00:23:23

And it's, it's powerful for,

we'll, we'll put a link in the

430

: 00:23:26

show notes for, for listeners.

431

: 00:23:27

if you don't already know Brenny

Brown and it's so powerful, what you

432

: 00:23:31

said there, and it's something I've

experienced and clearly you're, you're

433

: 00:23:34

working with him naming it saying,

Hey, I feel like this, I feel whatever

434

: 00:23:40

that is, it releases the power.

435

: 00:23:42

It's, it's like, it dispels

its, magic charge, doesn't it?

436

: 00:23:45

For me, it's like, once you've spoken it,

particularly if you've been witnessed.

437

: 00:23:49

And someone who's just like, yeah, okay.

438

: 00:23:51

Yeah, me too.

439

: 00:23:52

And that's, oh, that's okay.

440

: 00:23:55

And the witnessing and the speaking

is a really powerful thing.

441

: 00:23:58

Is that something you've experienced?

442

: 00:24:01

Yaron Engler: No, but I just had like a

really interesting, you know, it's the

443

: 00:24:03

thing about like a water that is getting

stuck and you have the hole there and

444

: 00:24:08

you see that something is stuck and

it's like, I don't want to touch it.

445

: 00:24:12

I don't want to touch it.

446

: 00:24:13

I don't want, but if you just

go and touch it and you move

447

: 00:24:14

it, the water starts to flow.

448

: 00:24:16

It's, and I love what you said

because the image came very strong

449

: 00:24:19

for me that it's just that we need

to, again, it's about leaning.

450

: 00:24:24

Sal: me, there's something,

and I want to speak around the

451

: 00:24:25

body of this and embodiment.

452

: 00:24:27

So I, I do a lot of my regular,

as you'll know, for new people.

453

: 00:24:30

so I work with the mind, I work with

emotions and I work with the body.

454

: 00:24:33

I'm so interested in how

we use physical movement.

455

: 00:24:37

in an intelligent way.

456

: 00:24:38

And I don't just mean to grow big muscles

and be cardiovascularly efficient,

457

: 00:24:41

even though that's really good.

458

: 00:24:43

If our body is functioning and moving

well, it's a processing system.

459

: 00:24:47

It processes trauma.

460

: 00:24:49

It creates all sorts of things

that work our brain, and hence

461

: 00:24:52

our mind is in a different state.

462

: 00:24:54

And all experiences

embodied to some degree.

463

: 00:24:57

I had a, share something personal.

464

: 00:24:59

I had a treatment done

recently, a fascia treatment.

465

: 00:25:02

So those who don't know, if you

have a certain deep tissue massage,

466

: 00:25:05

fascia is the connective tissue.

467

: 00:25:07

And there's some deep work going in there.

468

: 00:25:08

And my, my, my guy did a bit of work on

an old scar, 30 year old scar in the body.

469

: 00:25:14

I thought it was fine, you know, I've

been, I've had a lot of work done and

470

: 00:25:17

he did some work on it and the next,

through the night and the next day,

471

: 00:25:22

oh, the anger and the fury and then

the fear, literally, I was as if I was

472

: 00:25:28

drunk and I hadn't drunk any alcohol,

it was as if I was drunk and I said to

473

: 00:25:31

my partner, like, you know, just give

me space, I need space, it's something

474

: 00:25:35

that's got triggered and released, it's

coming up and it went, literally, it was

475

: 00:25:38

24 hours and it just sort of faded away.

476

: 00:25:40

So there's so much in our body and we

want to get closer to our body as well.

477

: 00:25:46

The embodiment, the physicality.

478

: 00:25:49

What are you doing, Yaron, that

brings men into their bodies and,

479

: 00:25:53

and does any form of bodywork?

480

: 00:25:54

I'm curious to what you

might use in your practice.

481

: 00:25:57

Yaron Engler: Oh, there's a lot.

482

: 00:25:59

As you know, I'm sure that

you have many, many practices.

483

: 00:26:01

I think.

484

: 00:26:02

You know, I won't go into all of it

because it's, it's useless, but I think

485

: 00:26:06

as a first step is, it's just to, it

comes back to what we spoke about before.

486

: 00:26:09

It's to build awareness.

487

: 00:26:11

So again, just as a simple form, we are

so busy as man, especially in our, we

488

: 00:26:17

are in our heads thinking constantly.

489

: 00:26:20

And it's about allowing myself

to, okay, there is thinking, but

490

: 00:26:26

what is going on with my body?

491

: 00:26:29

And really to start developing

the awareness of sensations in the

492

: 00:26:34

body that we don't even notice.

493

: 00:26:37

So something that I really

like to do, and I do it very

494

: 00:26:40

often, is kind of a body scan.

495

: 00:26:41

It's a form of simple meditation.

496

: 00:26:43

You draw people into breathing

a little bit, and then I tell

497

: 00:26:45

them like, Notice where you carry

tension in your body right now.

498

: 00:26:49

And for example, I am now, as I

speak to you, I'm noticing that

499

: 00:26:52

I have Some tension in my throat,

which is a common place for me.

500

: 00:26:56

It's a chakra that I haven't yet

released and still work in progress.

501

: 00:27:00

But by noticing it, then I can start

to change my breath or to change

502

: 00:27:05

my posture a little bit or not.

503

: 00:27:08

Just acknowledge, Oh, here's a teacher.

504

: 00:27:10

There's a teacher here that told me that I

am holding tension in one part of my body.

505

: 00:27:14

What does that mean?

506

: 00:27:16

And then to spend some time with it.

507

: 00:27:18

And it's, it's to start using the body

as a guide that if there is tension,

508

: 00:27:22

I can slowly release the tension.

509

: 00:27:25

And if I start to release the tension in

my body, I will release more potential

510

: 00:27:29

for thinking, for relaxing, and so on.

511

: 00:27:33

A lot of people don't notice

that they have headaches.

512

: 00:27:37

All the time, that they have

pain in the neck all the time.

513

: 00:27:40

And, and then we're surprised that we are

constantly angry, frustrated, ta, ta, ta.

514

: 00:27:45

And that's the thing.

515

: 00:27:46

Okay.

516

: 00:27:46

So pay attention to the body

and start releasing that.

517

: 00:27:49

And you'll see that again, the impact

will be on all the other ingredients

518

: 00:27:53

that you're more interested in your

level of clarity, confidence, and so on.

519

: 00:27:57

Sal: Yeah, it

520

: 00:27:57

did.

521

: 00:27:57

Um, I've done body scans and if

you, if, if, if our listeners

522

: 00:28:01

haven't done it, it's really a case

of going to any part of the body.

523

: 00:28:04

A lot of us start from the feet

up and you spend time noticing.

524

: 00:28:08

Now I'm fascinated.

525

: 00:28:09

I have a lot of kinesthetic awareness.

526

: 00:28:10

It's perhaps a natural intelligence

I was given and I've done huge

527

: 00:28:13

amounts of physical training and

I'm very connected to my body.

528

: 00:28:16

I've worked with people who've

been traumatized for different

529

: 00:28:18

reasons, different, situations,

and they've had a really difficult

530

: 00:28:22

time connecting with their body.

531

: 00:28:23

So for some of us connecting

with our body is difficult.

532

: 00:28:26

So I would say wherever we are

at, start with the most obvious,

533

: 00:28:30

and I almost guarantee you can

connect with your fingertips.

534

: 00:28:33

So here you need to be

touching your fingertips.

535

: 00:28:35

There's reasons for this.

536

: 00:28:36

There's more neurons in your nerve cells,

in your fingertips, your lips and your

537

: 00:28:40

tongue than anywhere else in your body.

538

: 00:28:41

So if, if that's the least you do,

rubbing your fingertips will give you a

539

: 00:28:45

feel of what's going on just physically.

540

: 00:28:49

And it starts at the subtle.

541

: 00:28:51

And some of the guys I've worked

with, we go gross, like the big stuff.

542

: 00:28:55

So if you carry a heavy weight

or let's say do a heavy deadlift,

543

: 00:28:59

you really have to pay attention

to your body to do the exercise

544

: 00:29:03

because it's so overt and demanding.

545

: 00:29:06

And it can start there.

546

: 00:29:08

It can start there for guys.

547

: 00:29:10

I found that's a really powerful way.

548

: 00:29:11

Go heavy, go intense and go there.

549

: 00:29:14

And then if you're luckier, you

might be able to go towards the

550

: 00:29:17

yoga practice where you spend time

and it's really, really subtle.

551

: 00:29:20

But it's start where you

have some connection will

552

: 00:29:22

be my, my, my work on that.

553

: 00:29:25

I will start with where we can find

connection and then we expand from there.

554

: 00:29:28

What, what, what's your thoughts on that?

555

: 00:29:31

Yaron Engler: I think

the gym example is great.

556

: 00:29:34

And that's a great space for men,

actually, to start building that

557

: 00:29:39

awareness and to literally work on

it in a way that they can notice.

558

: 00:29:42

So I have seen so many times in

gyms, trying to lift a weight, we are

559

: 00:29:48

closing, squeezing, and that's the

complete opposite of what we should do.

560

: 00:29:53

So the invitation for men, if you

are someone who goes and does weight.

561

: 00:29:57

Next time you lift, instead of tensioning

and tensing everything, try to release

562

: 00:30:04

and to take a deep breath in and as

you exhale and you lift the weight,

563

: 00:30:08

relax your body instead of creating

tension, it's contradictive, but doing

564

: 00:30:14

the gym actually is a perfect exercise.

565

: 00:30:16

Thank you.

566

: 00:30:16

Place.

567

: 00:30:17

You know, I'm still waiting for

the gym that instead of putting

568

: 00:30:19

also this kind of music that takes

you all kind of out of yourself.

569

: 00:30:24

What if we do gyms that have more relaxed

music that invite you to slow things down

570

: 00:30:29

and to lift those weight from a place of

relaxation instead of place of forcing.

571

: 00:30:35

We are forcing too much in our lives

instead of creating from just a more

572

: 00:30:39

relaxed and free

573

: 00:30:41

Sal: Forgive me, I'm chuckling in

the background as you're on speaker.

574

: 00:30:44

I go to a popular gym, it's a really

great gym, I won't name it but...

575

: 00:30:47

Sometimes I see some guys there doing

the face and the face is squeezed,

576

: 00:30:51

the eyes, the jaws, like crazy.

577

: 00:30:54

And I could almost guarantee they

need to go triple on that weight.

578

: 00:30:56

Because I've been made to do

it by some of my trainers.

579

: 00:30:58

They'll just go, no go double.

580

: 00:30:59

You're like, What?!

581

: 00:31:00

That's when you really would pull

that face because it is beyond

582

: 00:31:03

almost the edge of possibility.

583

: 00:31:05

What is interesting about your thing,

and it's both funny and also concerning,

584

: 00:31:10

is we need to help, I think when we're

moving, whether it's weight, whether it's

585

: 00:31:14

yoga, or whether it's walking down the

road, we have tension and we can be tense.

586

: 00:31:19

And they are very different phenomena,

so physically and emotionally.

587

: 00:31:22

You can be tense, which is

tight, which is resistant, which

588

: 00:31:25

is a freeze state, which is...

589

: 00:31:27

It's kind of tantamount to moving

towards a trauma type, experience.

590

: 00:31:30

It's also perhaps a depressed

state, it's lockdown.

591

: 00:31:32

Whereas tension is the right amount

of force that your body might need

592

: 00:31:36

to walk, or to lift, or to carry.

593

: 00:31:40

If we misunderstand the two and get

binary, we go, we're tense or we're soggy.

594

: 00:31:45

We're in problems.

595

: 00:31:46

So the right amount of tension, and I

had very fortunate experience in yoga.

596

: 00:31:50

I did a lot of yoga for years, became

a yoga teacher and learned about

597

: 00:31:52

tensional forces and, biotensegrity

is one of the terms of the, the

598

: 00:31:57

tensional integrity of the body.

599

: 00:32:00

The same I see with the mind you're on.

600

: 00:32:01

This is such an interesting thing

that people have tension in the mind.

601

: 00:32:04

It's like, okay, I need to focus

on something or they're tense.

602

: 00:32:07

Like, Oh my God, I've got to do this.

603

: 00:32:09

And I think if we are softer, more with

the feeling, and this is everything

604

: 00:32:14

you're saying, and I love it.

605

: 00:32:16

We're with that feeling, whether

it's a heavy weight or whether

606

: 00:32:19

it's a challenge at work.

607

: 00:32:20

A difficult conversation.

608

: 00:32:22

The right tension, but not tense is

possibly how we're going to navigate that.

609

: 00:32:27

That challenge isn't in front of us.

610

: 00:32:30

Yaron Engler: And just to build on

that, a great, just to connect things

611

: 00:32:34

with what we said before, it's to

observe where you're coming from.

612

: 00:32:39

Are you coming from love or

are you coming from fear?

613

: 00:32:41

What I mean by that is those guys

that you say that are like, Oh,

614

: 00:32:45

like this, what actually guides

them to lift such a big weight?

615

: 00:32:50

It's if we take it down and

we drill down, it is fear.

616

: 00:32:55

I'm not good enough.

617

: 00:32:56

I need to look strong.

618

: 00:32:57

I need to, it's, it's, it's, it's, and

if someone goes to the gym for a place,

619

: 00:33:01

I'm going to take care of my body.

620

: 00:33:03

I'm going to take care of myself.

621

: 00:33:04

I don't care what people think about me.

622

: 00:33:05

I'm going to take this weight,

take a deep breath and lift

623

: 00:33:09

it because I do it for myself.

624

: 00:33:11

That's coming from, from love.

625

: 00:33:13

So all these things, It's, yeah, the tense

and the tension, it's to, again, analyze

626

: 00:33:21

for yourself, where am I coming from?

627

: 00:33:23

And that will help you to guide

yourself to what you said,

628

: 00:33:25

to the, to the positive path

629

: 00:33:29

Sal: yeah, yeah, absolutely.

630

: 00:33:30

It's so interesting.

631

: 00:33:32

I've been there, I've done it where

I've shown up at a gym or training

632

: 00:33:35

session where I've I've tried to prove.

633

: 00:33:38

because my own insecurities, my own

shame has been sneaking up in my mind.

634

: 00:33:43

And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to, I did.

635

: 00:33:45

I'll catch it.

636

: 00:33:46

I'm like, dude, what are you doing?

637

: 00:33:48

No one gives a damn anyway.

638

: 00:33:49

And I moved because of all of

the health markers for health,

639

: 00:33:53

for mental, physical, emotional.

640

: 00:33:56

And I say this to everyone I work with.

641

: 00:33:58

Exercise has got the wrong

concept in our culture.

642

: 00:34:00

Exercise is freedom.

643

: 00:34:02

Exercise should be joy.

644

: 00:34:04

It's vitality.

645

: 00:34:06

Who doesn't want more of that?

646

: 00:34:08

And there are ways to do it.

647

: 00:34:09

But if you come at the gym or whatever

training you're doing, and you're

648

: 00:34:12

trying to prove something, you're

trying to fill a hole of insecurity,

649

: 00:34:17

the weight will never be heavy enough.

650

: 00:34:18

It just won't.

651

: 00:34:20

Yaron Engler: I love that.

652

: 00:34:21

I love that.

653

: 00:34:21

And again, I totally relate to that.

654

: 00:34:23

And I still catch myself.

655

: 00:34:24

It's again, it's a work

in progress forever.

656

: 00:34:26

It's not like I'm, you know, but it's good

to catch ourselves and clean and clear

657

: 00:34:30

because then again, we have more power.

658

: 00:34:32

We have more freedom.

659

: 00:34:34

Sal: let's bring our, this

kind of bring our trajectory.

660

: 00:34:37

So we're, we're really speaking like,

okay, how can we move from pain to power?

661

: 00:34:39

And it feels like we're really

naming the key components about

662

: 00:34:42

seeing it, being with it, and some

of the, the, the ways to start

663

: 00:34:46

understanding where are you coming from?

664

: 00:34:48

So if we move our attention more

towards how do we, we're going

665

: 00:34:51

closer towards power now in.

666

: 00:34:53

in this space.

667

: 00:34:55

We, you defined power earlier

and I'm wondering about power.

668

: 00:35:00

I'm wondering about, I'm trying

to embody this myself, the pain

669

: 00:35:03

I've been through and as place of

power, how can we get more power?

670

: 00:35:08

So perhaps, what are we aiming for?

671

: 00:35:10

What is it?

672

: 00:35:11

You describe freedom.

673

: 00:35:12

I describe movement autonomy, but

what's, what are some of the strategies

674

: 00:35:17

you've been deploying both for your own

experience and the men you're working

675

: 00:35:19

with to start tuning into what is power?

676

: 00:35:22

How do we go towards them?

677

: 00:35:25

Yaron Engler: So for me, as I

said, power for me is freedom.

678

: 00:35:29

And when I say freedom, it's the

freedom from the identity that I'm

679

: 00:35:34

supposed to be something or someone.

680

: 00:35:37

Once I remove that pressure and understand

that I no longer need to live by what

681

: 00:35:41

my parents are expecting from me, what

society expects me, what I should be

682

: 00:35:45

doing, but I'm, I'm investigating more.

683

: 00:35:47

What is it that is driving me?

684

: 00:35:49

Not even what it is that I want, because

that's another, what is it drives me?

685

: 00:35:54

and we can connect this to the word

purpose, which is a big word, you know,

686

: 00:35:58

but I, I do believe that, spending time

to, Let some kind of thing that is a

687

: 00:36:03

drive a why whatever the language again

language is a funny thing But we all know

688

: 00:36:08

that there are things that pull us that

we will do anyway That it's and a lot

689

: 00:36:12

of us because we spend a lot of time in

our head We we forget about this and we

690

: 00:36:16

start to kind of go follow the written

rules and some written rules and and

691

: 00:36:21

and it's miserable so by Disconnecting

from that identity and that need to do

692

: 00:36:30

something because I'm supposed to, and

spending time in really defining who am

693

: 00:36:35

I and what do I want to create, and then

I can create freedom, and then I can,

694

: 00:36:39

through that freedom, I, again, power

is a funny word, as you said, because

695

: 00:36:43

when I think about power, it's like,

all this macho and if people are still

696

: 00:36:48

chasing that, I find it funny, to be

honest, and, so it's not really what I'm

697

: 00:36:54

talking about, because for me, power is

presence, is freedom, um, so again, I

698

: 00:37:02

think the lack of identity, the relaxation

into what is instead of what's supposed

699

: 00:37:08

to be, and yes, and spending some time

in, in feeling into what is my purpose,

700

: 00:37:15

what is it that I'm meant to be

701

: 00:37:17

here?

702

: 00:37:17

Thank you.

703

: 00:37:18

Sal: Power is presence.

704

: 00:37:20

Wow.

705

: 00:37:20

That is a line.

706

: 00:37:22

I'm all about presence because

if you're not, if you don't exude

707

: 00:37:25

presence in life, where are you?

708

: 00:37:27

You're somewhere in the past.

709

: 00:37:28

You're somewhere in the future.

710

: 00:37:30

They're both abstractions in reality.

711

: 00:37:32

If you're not really with what you're

doing, then you don't have presence.

712

: 00:37:37

And power.

713

: 00:37:38

You know, if we think for

a second, What do I want?

714

: 00:37:41

What do I want for life?

715

: 00:37:42

And I don't know many

people that different.

716

: 00:37:45

I don't know, yeah, you might want

this car or that house or this job.

717

: 00:37:48

They're kind of the expressions,

but what do we want?

718

: 00:37:50

We want to feel good.

719

: 00:37:52

We want to feel loved.

720

: 00:37:52

We want to feel safe.

721

: 00:37:54

Whatever those feelings are, they're

all generally positive feeling.

722

: 00:37:58

Most people want the positive stuff.

723

: 00:38:00

And freedom, presence.

724

: 00:38:02

Those are wonderful ways to

express yourself into being.

725

: 00:38:06

And of course, when we think about

freedom or the opposite, being trapped

726

: 00:38:11

or shut down, if you're driven by an

idea or the past or a construct of what

727

: 00:38:18

a man should be, what you should be,

You need to get free of that because

728

: 00:38:23

otherwise it's, it's, it's, it's a

box and I'm really fascinated to, to

729

: 00:38:28

sort of talk a bit more about freedom.

730

: 00:38:30

It's a value that I hold dear.

731

: 00:38:32

Freedom is something which, for

me, I'm just going to caveat this.

732

: 00:38:35

It's not about sitting on

the sofa doing nothing.

733

: 00:38:37

It's, it's free to choose, free

to be present, free to learn.

734

: 00:38:43

So it's quite a dynamic thing that

connects to things as opposed to,

735

: 00:38:46

I don't have to go to work today.

736

: 00:38:47

That's just not doing anything.

737

: 00:38:49

So my term of freedom is, is

having volition and energy

738

: 00:38:52

to go towards and learn.

739

: 00:38:54

How Are you helping people uncouple that

old narrative and connect with freedom?

740

: 00:39:01

Do you actually, do you help people

say like, this is your freedom?

741

: 00:39:04

How are you working with some of the

guys you're working with who might have

742

: 00:39:07

strong connections to the past identity

and yet want to move towards power?

743

: 00:39:13

What's some strategies

you're, you're using?

744

: 00:39:15

Yaron Engler: there are many

ways that I can work, with men.

745

: 00:39:18

And I think probably the best way

to describe it is I created a very

746

: 00:39:21

simple framework that really helps

men understand where we are playing.

747

: 00:39:24

So we are using a lot of tools,

but it will all fall into

748

: 00:39:27

that crop framework and crop.

749

: 00:39:29

First of all, we like to talk

about meanings of words here.

750

: 00:39:33

So the meaning of crop,

there are two meanings.

751

: 00:39:36

One is something that we're planting.

752

: 00:39:38

in the ground in order to nourish

ourselves later on, that it will come

753

: 00:39:41

as a crop, which is something that

I feel is a good strategy for life.

754

: 00:39:45

And to be very careful with

what we're planting, of course.

755

: 00:39:48

And the other meaning is, you know, like

in Photoshop, we have a lot of a picture.

756

: 00:39:53

And there's a lot of stuff and we like to

crop the thing that really matters to us.

757

: 00:39:56

The same thing with life.

758

: 00:39:57

You know, we have the mortgage,

the kids, the thing, the work, the

759

: 00:40:00

whatever, the going to the gym.

760

: 00:40:02

There's a lot of noise.

761

: 00:40:02

How can we let go of everything,

all the noise and keep what we,

762

: 00:40:05

what truly, truly matters to us.

763

: 00:40:07

And crop comes from the C R O

P and I'll start from the end.

764

: 00:40:11

What we want in that sense of

freedom that we're talking about

765

: 00:40:14

is, is peace, play and potential.

766

: 00:40:16

We want to play life with our

potential and to really enjoy a

767

: 00:40:20

free life, fun of, where we connect

with people, where we have fun.

768

: 00:40:24

In order to be in that peace

space, we need to move to the O.

769

: 00:40:27

And the O is what we

have been talking about.

770

: 00:40:29

It's to have a much deeper

observation of what's going on.

771

: 00:40:33

How am I acting?

772

: 00:40:34

Why am I thinking like this?

773

: 00:40:35

Why am I speaking like this?

774

: 00:40:36

What is actually going on here?

775

: 00:40:38

And the more self aware I become to what's

going on, the more I can then act in life.

776

: 00:40:43

In order to do that self, that

observation, I need to know who I am.

777

: 00:40:50

And that takes me to the R.

778

: 00:40:51

The R is reconnecting, reconnecting with

who you truly are, not what you've been

779

: 00:40:57

told, not all the stories, all the masks

that we put, but really reconnecting

780

: 00:41:02

with something really, really.

781

: 00:41:04

Deep, that is you.

782

: 00:41:06

And in order to do that comes

the C, which is where the heavy

783

: 00:41:10

lifting of the work is happening.

784

: 00:41:12

That's the cleansing and clearing.

785

: 00:41:14

And that's a lot of unlearning.

786

: 00:41:16

You know, we live in a world where we

constantly need to learn more things,

787

: 00:41:19

and we get more and more information.

788

: 00:41:21

I go in the other way.

789

: 00:41:22

I'm telling you we're going to cleanse

and clear a lot of shit that you've

790

: 00:41:25

accumulated, that it makes you feel that

you're something or someone, but it's

791

: 00:41:30

actually killing you because it's not.

792

: 00:41:32

And so we do a lot of

practices around the clean.

793

: 00:41:35

We spoke about shame.

794

: 00:41:36

We clear the shame.

795

: 00:41:37

We spoke about, we talk about

habits around the information

796

: 00:41:40

that we consume and the food that

we consume and a lot of things.

797

: 00:41:43

And we start to let go naturally.

798

: 00:41:45

Once we start to let go,

it's like a hard disk.

799

: 00:41:47

You know, you take a

hard disk that is full.

800

: 00:41:50

The computer says I'm full.

801

: 00:41:52

No more space.

802

: 00:41:53

You take the hard disk out.

803

: 00:41:55

You start to cleanse a lot of files

and then by doing that you can plug

804

: 00:41:59

the hard disk and suddenly there

is space for new programs, new apps

805

: 00:42:02

that are more relevant for you.

806

: 00:42:04

So coming back, we do the

cleansing and clearing of...

807

: 00:42:07

A lot, which naturally, this reconnection

with who you truly are just bubbles up

808

: 00:42:12

naturally, and that can be scary for

a lot of men, because what comes up as

809

: 00:42:16

truth can contradict the way you lived

your life for 10, 20, 30 years, and that

810

: 00:42:19

can be scary, and this is where a space

like the men's group is really good,

811

: 00:42:22

because you will be encouraged to go

there, lean in, lean in, lean in, lean in.

812

: 00:42:25

compared to your habitual environment

where people tell you, what are you doing?

813

: 00:42:28

What's wrong with you?

814

: 00:42:29

And a lot of judgment.

815

: 00:42:31

So you do the cleansing and clearing,

you reconnect with who you are.

816

: 00:42:34

You start to observe yourself

and life in a very different way.

817

: 00:42:36

And then you start to play to potential.

818

: 00:42:39

And actually I can add

another P, the power.

819

: 00:42:41

I didn't think about it before, man.

820

: 00:42:42

It's something that comes out of this

821

: 00:42:44

Sal: Beautiful.

822

: 00:42:45

Yeah.

823

: 00:42:45

Crop P.

824

: 00:42:45

I love it.

825

: 00:42:46

Thank you.

826

: 00:42:47

it's really, it's a really elegant model.

827

: 00:42:48

It's clear, it's simple, and it has

a, a, a beautiful, life cycle to it.

828

: 00:42:53

And it's, it's really powerful.

829

: 00:42:55

you're, you made a point there,

which I'm really struck by.

830

: 00:42:57

I want to kind of, I want to speak to

it, which is, When you change, other

831

: 00:43:01

people may not be ready for that.

832

: 00:43:03

So I've had it with my coaching clients

where they've done deep existential work

833

: 00:43:07

and they're like, I'm going to change.

834

: 00:43:08

I'm done with being the person I am.

835

: 00:43:10

I'm going to change.

836

: 00:43:11

And I work with them in my own unique

way, but not too dissimilar from you.

837

: 00:43:16

But to caveat that, if you're in

a place of change, people may not

838

: 00:43:19

be on board with you changing.

839

: 00:43:21

People may really struggle with that,

because as humans, we like homeostasis.

840

: 00:43:26

We like what we know.

841

: 00:43:27

It's status quo biases, a thinking bias.

842

: 00:43:30

Anytime we change, or if our

partner changes, that can be

843

: 00:43:34

challenging for the other.

844

: 00:43:36

So if you're embarking on change work...

845

: 00:43:38

I would definitely say, let your

close people know and say, tell

846

: 00:43:43

them what's likely to happen.

847

: 00:43:45

You want them on board, right?

848

: 00:43:46

You want them on board if they're doing

this kind of process, as opposed to

849

: 00:43:49

surprising the life out of them and

like, Oh, suddenly you're different.

850

: 00:43:52

What are you up to?

851

: 00:43:53

And then creating more disruption.

852

: 00:43:56

So it's, it's definitely, if

you're going through an evolution

853

: 00:43:58

point in your identity as a

person, particularly as a man.

854

: 00:44:02

I would say, bring the other in.

855

: 00:44:05

It also demonstrates vulnerability and

it also means when you speak of it, we

856

: 00:44:08

are still distinguishing any bits of

shame because we've spoken about it.

857

: 00:44:11

That's, that's my experience of,

of when someone really changes.

858

: 00:44:15

Have you seen that Yoram?

859

: 00:44:17

Yaron Engler: Yes, but I would

like to add another piece to that.

860

: 00:44:20

I think it's a, it's a good take to,

to tell the people around you, but

861

: 00:44:23

I want to be very honest as well.

862

: 00:44:26

When you really go there and you start

to change, there is a price sometimes.

863

: 00:44:31

And it could very much be that people

that are very close to you as if,

864

: 00:44:35

because they're not really if you

look at it, but people that are, you

865

: 00:44:38

consider to be very close, but you

feel that there is a disconnect, you

866

: 00:44:41

would naturally start to feel that

there is more and more disconnect.

867

: 00:44:45

Now again, that sounds scary

and this is why we avoid this.

868

: 00:44:48

But, and this is where the value of

leaning in, imagine if you start, you

869

: 00:44:54

know, you clear again, the hard disk

from, from people that might pull you

870

: 00:44:57

back or hold you back or judge you.

871

: 00:44:59

What if you understand that by doing that,

you clear the space and you will be with

872

: 00:45:05

people who understand you better, who

can really acknowledge what you do and

873

: 00:45:09

appreciate this, who can really inspire

you and make you think and feel things

874

: 00:45:14

that you want, but you don't have access

now because you're a little bit limited.

875

: 00:45:18

So there are two things.

876

: 00:45:19

there is the preparation of people around

you and, and naturally you will see

877

: 00:45:22

that some people join into the journey.

878

: 00:45:23

but some people will drop on the way and

it's okay because you'll find others.

879

: 00:45:27

So yeah, it's an important point.

880

: 00:45:29

And another thing I just want to mention

about before you, you mentioned crop as

881

: 00:45:33

a, as a kind of a complete life cycle or

something like this that you mentioned.

882

: 00:45:37

I want to be very, very clear.

883

: 00:45:38

As you and I said before, what I said

about crop, it's not that we graduate

884

: 00:45:42

from cleansing and clearing, we then

reconnect and then we observe life and

885

: 00:45:45

then everything is great and potential.

886

: 00:45:48

No, it's a continuous cycle.

887

: 00:45:50

And every time we go deeper and deeper

and deeper, as you said, you catch

888

: 00:45:54

yourself still, I catch myself still.

889

: 00:45:56

And this is another, concept that

I think is important to break.

890

: 00:46:01

Which is, as men, we are looking

for solutions and we want to

891

: 00:46:06

solve things and get to it.

892

: 00:46:07

You will never get to it.

893

: 00:46:09

as you already know, whatever was

your biggest achievement in life,

894

: 00:46:14

Really, like the biggest, biggest,

How long did you celebrate for?

895

: 00:46:17

Two hours?

896

: 00:46:18

A day?

897

: 00:46:19

Maybe you went crazy for a week?

898

: 00:46:20

And then, life comes back in a cycle.

899

: 00:46:23

So, let's stop kind of

attaching to the results.

900

: 00:46:27

Go there and have them because

they're nice postcodes to aim for.

901

: 00:46:31

But really, be present, enjoy

what you're doing on the path.

902

: 00:46:34

Because, I like to say this, we can either

think about life, or we can live it.

903

: 00:46:40

Sal: Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

904

: 00:46:42

I think it is, I think it's

an important point to bring

905

: 00:46:46

ourselves gently to a close.

906

: 00:46:48

Are you thinking about your life

or are you going to live it?

907

: 00:46:52

Thinking is safe.

908

: 00:46:55

Because it's in your own head, it's an

abstract, it's fantasy, a lot of the

909

: 00:46:58

time, living it is real, smelly, tough,

beautiful, elegant, all of the above.

910

: 00:47:06

So you can either live an idea of

life or you can live the real life.

911

: 00:47:10

I guess we get to choose, right?

912

: 00:47:11

So, you're on, we can speak for hours.

913

: 00:47:13

It's such a delight to have you on.

914

: 00:47:15

I know you do amazing work with men.

915

: 00:47:16

We shall leave your details in

the show notes for guys who want

916

: 00:47:18

to learn more about your ROM.

917

: 00:47:20

you can reach out through the

contacts in the show notes.

918

: 00:47:23

Amazing.

919

: 00:47:24

Thank you.

920

: 00:47:24

I hope, dear listener, that

some of these points have

921

: 00:47:27

triggered you, got you thinking.

922

: 00:47:29

If you're feeling a bit

scared, that's not a bad thing.

923

: 00:47:31

As Yaron has already said, lean into it.

924

: 00:47:35

But of course, if you feel like you

need support, go find the right people.

925

: 00:47:38

There's plenty of us out here.

926

: 00:47:40

Change is possible.

927

: 00:47:41

Till the next time, dear

listener, take care.

928

: 00:47:48

Sal Jefferies: Thank you

so much for listening.

929

: 00:47:50

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

930

: 00:47:53

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

931

: 00:47:58

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

932

: 00:48:01

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

933

: 00:48:10

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

934

: 00:48:14

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

935

: 00:48:17

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

936

: 00:48:22

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

937

: 00:48:26

Until the next time, take care.