Episode 61
Finding Your Flow: Aligning Values with Time Management
Time is our most valuable commodity, and how we manage it can significantly impact our lives and businesses. Abigail Barnes shares her insights on the 888 formula, which emphasizes the importance of balancing sleep, work, and personal time to create a fulfilling life. She discusses the necessity of understanding our individual circumstances and setting long-term goals while remaining adaptable to change.
The conversation also delves into the deeper narratives we tell ourselves about productivity and time management, highlighting the importance of self-awareness and personal choice. Abigail emphasises that true productivity stems from aligning our actions with our values and recognising the stories that shape our perceptions of time.
Key Points:
- Time is our most valuable commodity, and how we manage it shapes our lives.
- The 888 formula suggests we allocate eight hours each to sleep, work, and life.
- Understanding our values and goals helps us make better choices with our time.
- Sleep is essential for productivity; neglecting it leads to long-term health issues.
- Self-awareness and reflection are crucial for identifying time-wasting behaviours and patterns.
- Human design can help us recognise our unique strengths and how to manage our time effectively.
Chapters:
- 00:00 - Intro: The Value of Time
- 00:02 - Understanding Time Management
- 00:13 - The 888 Formula Explained
- 00:59 - Setting Goals for the Future
- 00:23 - The Impact of Sleep on Productivity
- 04:03 - Identifying Personal Time Wasters
- 42:54 - The Inner Child and Time Management
- 44:46 - Overcoming Limiting Beliefs
- 48:15 - Conclusion: Making the Most of Your Time
Abigail's BIO & Information
Abigail Barnes is the founder and CEO of Success by Design Training, an award-winning entrepreneur, author, speaker, and corporate trainer on time management and productive wellbeing. She is a qualified coach, creator of the renowned 888 Formula and host of The Time Management Podcast.
Success by Design Training is on a mission to teach 1 million people how to Become more Productive using The 888 Formula by 2025.
Abigail holds a BA Hons Degree in Business & Marketing Management, a Professional Postgraduate Diploma in Marketing, DipM ACIM, a certificate in Neuroscience Professional Development, and is a qualified coach.
LINKS
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/abigailrbarnes
The Time Management Podcast: https://bit.ly/LISTENEPISODE
Website: www.successbydesigntraining.com
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/successbydesigntraining
Free Chapter: Time Management for Entrepreneurs & Professionals: https://bit.ly/YOURFREECHAPTER
Transcript
Our time is our most valuable commodity.
Abigail Barnes:So from my point of view, it's how we can make the most of the time that we have to create the life that we actually want to be living.
Sal Jeffries:When we think about time, how do you think about time?
Abigail Barnes:We all get the same 24 hours and these 24 hours need to be allocated to certain immovable bookends.
Abigail Barnes:We call it the 888 formula.
Abigail Barnes:We need to sleep.
Abigail Barnes:This is one immovable bookend.
Sal Jeffries:So how we utilize time and what we're doing with our time, if that isn't vetted against a really important metrics, say your values, what you care about, what impact you're making, then are you going to make the best choices with time?
Abigail Barnes:I love this question.
Abigail Barnes:We fundamentally have to recognize that every single one of us is in a different set of circumstances.
Abigail Barnes:And as you were saying earlier, our life is constantly evolving.
Abigail Barnes:So what worked yesterday won't work today, might not work tomorrow.
Abigail Barnes:We need to set 3 year, 5 year, 10 year goals so that we have a direction.
Sal Jeffries:Welcome to Mindset, Mood and Movement.
Sal Jeffries:A systemic approach to human behavior, performance and well being.
Sal Jeffries:Hello and welcome.
Sal Jeffries:I am joined by Abigail Barnes today and Abigail is a specialist in time management and productivity.
Sal Jeffries:Now those of you who are busy business owners are going to want to hear this because time management and productivity, they are so important, but there's a deeper level to this, so we're going to get into that.
Sal Jeffries:And I leave that dangling carrot hanging there, but I want to welcome Abigail and yeah, perhaps Abigail, you can say a little bit more about you, but welcome to the show.
Abigail Barnes:Hi Sal.
Abigail Barnes:I am so excited to be here.
Abigail Barnes:Thank you for having me.
Sal Jeffries:Very welcome.
Sal Jeffries:Time management productivity, it's a big field and it can cover a lot of things.
Sal Jeffries:Perhaps you could say a little bit more about how you deal with this area of activity and work.
Abigail Barnes:It is such a big field.
Abigail Barnes:And I came to this after 10 years working in finance in marketing.
Abigail Barnes:I have a degree in marketing and postgraduate marketing and I now run my own business.
Abigail Barnes:But from that time management productivity point of view, our time is our most valuable commodity.
Abigail Barnes:So from my point of view, it's how we can make the most of the time that we have to create the life that we actually want to be living.
Sal Jeffries:Amazing.
Sal Jeffries:And I hear a lot of requests from my clients about being more productive and time management being fundamental to how they run their businesses and do things.
Sal Jeffries:And it makes a lot of sense.
Sal Jeffries:What I'm intrigued in is that I don't think it's the end of the question, I don't think it's the end of the point because why be more effective with one's time?
Sal Jeffries:Why be more productive?
Sal Jeffries:I think there's an, there's a, there's a point after that.
Sal Jeffries:I know you and I are going to talk to, to some degree, but perhaps we can start at the beginning when we think about time.
Sal Jeffries:How do you think about time?
Sal Jeffries:Because it's, it's an abstraction.
Sal Jeffries:So I'm curious, how does your.
Sal Jeffries:Has.
Sal Jeffries:What's your interpretation of time?
Sal Jeffries:How do you think about it when you're working and working with clients?
Abigail Barnes:So let's start here.
Abigail Barnes:We all get the same 24 hours and these 24 hours need to be allocated to certain immovable bookends.
Abigail Barnes:We call it the 888 formula.
Abigail Barnes:We need to sleep, this is one immovable bookend.
Abigail Barnes:And we need to work, this is another immovable bookend.
Abigail Barnes:Science says we need to sleep between seven to nine hours, so we call that eight.
Abigail Barnes:Society says that we need to be working eight hours.
Abigail Barnes:So what is left is eight hours for our life.
Abigail Barnes:Now obviously if you're an entrepreneur, it is going to be a different allocation of those hours that you have every single day.
Abigail Barnes:The 888 formula is not a prescription.
Abigail Barnes:The 888 formula is a recommendation for where to start.
Abigail Barnes:Are you feeling rested?
Abigail Barnes:Do you need to focus on sleeping more or resting more?
Abigail Barnes:How are you allocating your time when it comes to work?
Abigail Barnes:And what the formula does is it helps you to look at and audit where everything is going in order to create what it is that you actually want from the life, from the time that you have.
Abigail Barnes:An example from myself is that I used to spend maybe 14, 15 hours of working.
Abigail Barnes:I then slept for four or five hours because that's what I had.
Abigail Barnes:And then the rest was my life, which meant that I had no life and I was always tired.
Abigail Barnes:This was when I was in my corporate job in the corporate days and then obviously when I started my own business it was a similar ish.
Abigail Barnes:But you get to a place and a stage where you ask yourself, is this what I want to create?
Abigail Barnes:Is this what I want to live?
Abigail Barnes:And the answer to that question is personal, yes or no.
Abigail Barnes:And from there we can then start to make the changes.
Abigail Barnes:And that's when we're tweaking where the time is going and what activities are getting the time.
Sal Jeffries:That's a lovely description.
Sal Jeffries:I'm thinking about how I work with clients when I'm coaching and we have to do a practical things to attend to like strategy activity, what are you doing?
Sal Jeffries:All the stuff that's happening now.
Sal Jeffries:But if we don't have an eye on the future, an intentionality, what are we doing it for?
Sal Jeffries:What are we growing?
Sal Jeffries:Who are we going to be?
Sal Jeffries:Who are we not going to be?
Sal Jeffries:Then we're not as aligned, I would say, and we're not as clear on our objectives.
Sal Jeffries:So how we utilize time and what we're doing with our time, if that isn't vetted against a really important metrics, say your values, what you care about, what impact you're making, then are you going to make the best choices with time?
Sal Jeffries:And I think there's an elegance around what you said there, around looking at what are you trying to achieve and then bracket it into these different areas.
Sal Jeffries:Now sleep is a favorite of mine.
Sal Jeffries:I really love sleeping and I've missed a load of sleep recently because I've got a poorly pooch who's kept me awake at night and I've noticed just how much is affecting my cognition and my ability and I'm having to take little rest points in the day as I'm looking after him.
Sal Jeffries:And sleep used to get a bad rap, didn't it?
Sal Jeffries:Like it was a waste of time.
Sal Jeffries:If you're an entrepreneur, you should just be, you know, smashing it.
Sal Jeffries:All these terrible terms and yet we now know in a lot of fields of sleep, psychology and sleep science, sleep is the bedrock of energy management and of course then time management.
Sal Jeffries:How do you work using your 888 formula with someone and first say, well, let's have a look at the sleep piece of it.
Sal Jeffries:What, what do you do with that?
Abigail Barnes:So every client will come to me with a different requirement.
Abigail Barnes:A client might come to me and say that I am feeling burnt out and tired and how can I make changes?
Abigail Barnes:The first step that we start with Sal.
Abigail Barnes:So once people have understood the 888 formula, we then move into the actual action taking.
Abigail Barnes:So this is where you audit your time for seven days.
Abigail Barnes:I cannot make it any sexier than that.
Abigail Barnes:The data drives your decisions.
Abigail Barnes:So when it comes to sleep, what is impacting your sleep?
Abigail Barnes:What is taking away from you, getting to bed at the time that is beneficial for you and waking up at the time that is beneficial for you.
Abigail Barnes:And once you are aware of those activities on your time sheet that you don't want to be there, you can then start to remove them.
Abigail Barnes:And some of them might be over caring for people.
Abigail Barnes:So in my book I've got six archetypes.
Abigail Barnes:One of them is the Care Bear.
Abigail Barnes:This is the person who is seen by their family and friends as the fixer, let's say, and is forever giving out fish rather than teaching people how to fish.
Abigail Barnes:The question to ask yourself is, how much time am I using on a daily, weekly, monthly basis doing things for people rather than coaching them and asking them that question, what do you think you should do?
Abigail Barnes:Because you would be so shocked at how this is coming up again and again and again in people's timesheets where they are then saying, but I couldn't get to bed because I was on a call helping so and so with their xyz.
Abigail Barnes:Then my question is, and how often does this happen?
Abigail Barnes:And then the next question is, and would you like this to keep happening?
Abigail Barnes:And then the next question is, and what do you think you could do about it?
Sal Jeffries:Lovely.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah, I love that.
Sal Jeffries:Looking at.
Sal Jeffries:I mean, I'm all about patterns, patterns of behavior, thinking patterns of how people operate.
Sal Jeffries:It's.
Sal Jeffries:It's the space to work at where I see, anyway, that I see those connections between things and archetypes.
Sal Jeffries:Oh, it's.
Sal Jeffries:I love working with archetypes.
Sal Jeffries:They're really important, and we often don't see them.
Sal Jeffries:But I'm sure, like you've just alluded to there, if you drop something such as, are you the Care Bear or the Savior, what pattern or archetypal pattern are you operating from?
Sal Jeffries:It can really wake someone up.
Sal Jeffries:I had a client who was a savior, archetypal pattern, and he hadn't seen him, and he had a lot of, you know, demands, and he was really, really stretched.
Sal Jeffries:And I challenged him in a similar vein, which was, okay, why, you know, how come you're doing this for this person?
Sal Jeffries:What's the reason for that?
Sal Jeffries:And there was all these excuses like, well, they needed my help and they couldn't do it.
Sal Jeffries:But when we actually pulled it apart, they could do it.
Sal Jeffries:What they wanted was his confidence, and perhaps they wanted his trust to say, yeah, you can go do this, and if you make a mistake, you'll learn.
Sal Jeffries:But what he hadn't seen is he'd been stuck in the savior archetype and hence was getting massively drained.
Sal Jeffries:And the irony was he was getting really upset by him.
Sal Jeffries:It's your archetype, so it's your call.
Sal Jeffries:And I think when we start to own that and understand the pattern and why we have it and what it is, what's invested, then we can start to loosen it.
Sal Jeffries:But, yeah, that's such a powerful one.
Sal Jeffries:Right?
Sal Jeffries:Energy management around sleep.
Sal Jeffries:Are you giving it all away.
Sal Jeffries:Perhaps you could say a little bit more.
Sal Jeffries:I was really intrigued what you said there about what's in the way.
Sal Jeffries:And when I think about sleep, you know, people say I can't get to bed early enough or, you know, I'm so much on what's in the way.
Sal Jeffries:I think is an interesting one because rather than adding to someone's life, like, I don't know, do a meditation before bed, do some breath work, rather than adding, I wonder if there's more in subtraction, such as less screen time, boundaries around timeout with, you know, communications, whatever that is.
Sal Jeffries:How, how do you work with that, that subtraction, addition thing.
Sal Jeffries:So either adding in some skill and pattern or breath work and subtracting something negative.
Sal Jeffries:How do you work with that?
Abigail Barnes:Nothing is ever about what it's about.
Abigail Barnes:It's what I have discovered on this journey.
Abigail Barnes:And maybe you resonate with this also.
Abigail Barnes:If somebody says, I want to get to bed earlier, we have to explore why they are stopping themselves getting to bed earlier.
Abigail Barnes:And I'll give myself as an example, because this is a pattern that I noticed in myself recently and I call it sleep sabotage, where I know what time it is good for me to start getting ready for bed and what time it is good for me to be in bed.
Abigail Barnes:And I also know, Sal, that if I start reading a physical book within 15 minutes, even if I love that book, I am finding that I am starting to go into the tired, tired, tired, put the book down and then I'm asleep.
Abigail Barnes: 'clock so that I am in bed by: Abigail Barnes:Because these are my specific times.
Abigail Barnes:And it really comes down to the stories I'm telling myself in my head.
Abigail Barnes:And those stories start way, way earlier in the day, as you were saying, screen time and all the things.
Abigail Barnes:So in these conversations, some of the what we're doing is actually a subconscious consequence of what we're actually telling ourselves.
Abigail Barnes:The story I was telling myself was that I needed to work longer, I needed to address these, I needed to reply to these things as soon as they came in, even though I know I didn't.
Abigail Barnes:The question I then had to ask myself, Sal, was where did I pick this up?
Abigail Barnes:Where was I being triggered to feel like this?
Abigail Barnes:And it was things that I was consuming in the outside world.
Abigail Barnes:So your environment creates your reality.
Abigail Barnes:News that I had been reading, things that I had seen on social media, on LinkedIn, on other social platforms, et cetera, where people were talking about how fast should you reply to an email and what time you should start working and stop working.
Abigail Barnes:And it had activated something in my brain.
Abigail Barnes:Now, when we were doing our prep for this podcast episode, we were talking about human design.
Abigail Barnes:And perhaps we can talk about human design a bit on the episode today.
Abigail Barnes:But something that I have recognized is in my clients, who have an open head center and an open ajna, maybe they are taking in more of the information from the outside world, processing it, and it is triggering childhood things within them, which is then leading to actions that they're taking.
Abigail Barnes:Maybe now we're getting a little bit more esoteric here, but what I had noticed, just for the benefit of this example, is that this is my own design, and I was being triggered to look at what do I believe is enough work to make me able to own the title of being a successful business owner.
Abigail Barnes:Now, for some reason, that narrative was in my head, as you said earlier, of how hard you work, and way back when, you can sleep when you're dead.
Abigail Barnes:So sleep.
Abigail Barnes:No, you need to be working.
Abigail Barnes:And these were narratives that I had picked up in my younger days.
Abigail Barnes:These were from movies.
Abigail Barnes:This was from society.
Abigail Barnes:This was from the way that the world was in the 90s, and it had no bearing on business or how I was even running my business.
Abigail Barnes:So when it comes to working with my clients, when it comes to observing myself and habits and patterns, I'm always going to the deeper, deeper, deeper root.
Abigail Barnes:Because otherwise, if you put in a new, well, just go to bed.
Abigail Barnes:Just.
Abigail Barnes:Just start getting ready for bed at 10, you won't, because there's a hurdle.
Abigail Barnes:You have to explore what that hurdle is.
Abigail Barnes:And fundamentally, you also have to understand, is that hurdle there to keep you safe?
Abigail Barnes:Why do you believe you need that hurdle for safety, which then comes into neuroscience, which then comes into a whole nother rabbit hole.
Abigail Barnes:As I said, nothing is ever about what it's about.
Sal Jeffries:I love that.
Sal Jeffries:Thank you.
Sal Jeffries:A couple of points I want to pick up on.
Sal Jeffries:There is.
Sal Jeffries:Firstly, I resonate with that because I also was consumed by that worldview.
Sal Jeffries:Just a note on worldview.
Sal Jeffries:So it's a word that sometimes isn't understood, so I'll elaborate.
Sal Jeffries:Worldview is all that we understand as each individual, and that is curated and built from when we were a child, through the world we grew up in, through the triggers, the environments, and the messages.
Sal Jeffries:And we all get different messages for all sorts of reasons.
Sal Jeffries:And what we often don't do is look at our worldview and understand that that is a construction and it's editable.
Sal Jeffries:There's a plasticity to it, but it takes a conscious mind and a brave person to go is, do I want to operate like this?
Sal Jeffries:Whose rules are these?
Sal Jeffries:Am I making my own choices?
Sal Jeffries:Or am I, you know, subscribing to the entrepreneur burnout ethic, whatever it might be?
Sal Jeffries:So that's the first thing and two points you said there.
Sal Jeffries:And I hear this in my coaching work a lot.
Sal Jeffries:One success, and the other one was enough.
Sal Jeffries:Now, they were in what you said there was really elegant, but I saw those two signposts, language or signposts.
Sal Jeffries:And firstly, if we don't define success by each our own metrics and definitions, then it's someone else's definition.
Sal Jeffries:So, firstly, if you want to be more productive, certainly when I coach people, we need to understand, what are you trying to do and why?
Sal Jeffries:What is your definition of success?
Sal Jeffries:Can you measure it?
Sal Jeffries:And as you already alluded to, you need to measure this stuff.
Sal Jeffries:The second thing is enough.
Sal Jeffries:And that's a slippery little word.
Sal Jeffries:It sneaks in somewhere, but a meta pattern when we pull it apart.
Sal Jeffries:Doing enough work, and my invitation, if that comes up in my mind and clients minds, and perhaps your mind, Abigail, is what is enough.
Sal Jeffries:Because if you don't know what enough is, by default, it will never be enough.
Sal Jeffries:It's like a.
Sal Jeffries:It's an unfinished loop.
Sal Jeffries:So when we say, oh, you know, doing enough work, got enough done today, rather than I got, I don't know, 10 coaching clients done, or 10 podcasts done, or whatever, the definition of clarity, then it becomes this abstraction which is, as you said, like a rabbit hole you can't get out of.
Sal Jeffries:Not enoughness.
Sal Jeffries:So I would invite us all to think about what is enough.
Sal Jeffries:Got to name this stuff.
Sal Jeffries:Otherwise you're on the treadmill and you're not going to get off because you're not running it.
Sal Jeffries:So that's a.
Sal Jeffries:I just wanted to kind of pull that point there, which I think dovetails with what you're saying about going deeper.
Sal Jeffries:Because why be more productive?
Sal Jeffries:Yeah, why have more clients or more workflow?
Sal Jeffries:Why?
Sal Jeffries:And I know a lot of clients I've worked with have said, well, I just, you know, I need to be more productive.
Sal Jeffries:And they haven't really thought through why.
Sal Jeffries:Now, the obvious answer normally comes to, well, I need to make some more money.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah.
Sal Jeffries:But then if we ask, well, why?
Sal Jeffries:Because money is, again, it's not a finished loop.
Sal Jeffries:Money allows us to do things, so why do you want more money?
Sal Jeffries:And there might be A valid reason, and that's tangible.
Sal Jeffries:We can work with tangibility.
Sal Jeffries:Otherwise, if we're always chasing the proverbial carrot, the carrot runs you.
Sal Jeffries:You don't run it.
Sal Jeffries:And I think it's really interesting about how we run our mind when we think about productivity, which is from a coaching dimension, is to be really interested in, like, where are we going and why?
Sal Jeffries:And those deep questions.
Sal Jeffries:Now, you mentioned in your 88 model.
Sal Jeffries:We spoke about sleep to some degree and we sort of spoke about work to some degree.
Sal Jeffries:And the middle bit, the sandwich, that's the yummy bit in the middle.
Sal Jeffries:Tell me more about the bit in the middle, the life bit, you know, the bit which might say, oh, you know what, I'm free to do what I want to do.
Sal Jeffries:Say more about that, please.
Abigail Barnes:The middle eight is where we buy the food, cook the food, eat the food, clean up after the food, buy the clothes, wear the clothes, wash the clothes, do it all again.
Abigail Barnes:We do the hobbies, we start the relationship, we invest in the relationship, we build the relationship, we end the relationship, we start another relationship.
Abigail Barnes:It's also the time where we are spending it with our families.
Abigail Barnes:If we have them, we're spending it with our pets.
Abigail Barnes:If we have them, we're spending it on ourselves and our own personal development.
Abigail Barnes:And out of that middle eight as well is also our commute, which is why I feel like there is a bigger conversation around the work from home.
Abigail Barnes:Now, that again, is another great big rabbit hole that there probably isn't time to go down today.
Abigail Barnes:But just feeding into something that you were talking about earlier, it really, bottom line, comes down to what are your goals?
Abigail Barnes:What is it that you want to achieve from your time, from your life?
Abigail Barnes:And I did a podcast episode recently about goal setting because I'd had a conversation with a client who had been talking about how they didn't feel like they had achieved a goal from something that they had done recently.
Abigail Barnes:Now, my question back to them was, did you know then what you know now?
Abigail Barnes:And in their particular position, something had happened and they'd taken a new path and discovered more information and then got to a place.
Abigail Barnes:And now, looking back, they don't feel like they had a clear goal, but at the time, they were going down a new path and so were unable to set a goal.
Abigail Barnes:So it's very interesting in this world where we're ever changing and ever evolving to understand and give ourselves some grace, that at points in time, the goal might be less grandiose than we are led to believe a goal needs to be and a goal might just be to take the next step on this new journey.
Sal Jeffries:Nice.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah, really nice.
Sal Jeffries:And it speaks to the mindset of iteration rather than absolution.
Sal Jeffries:So it comes up in coaching all the time.
Sal Jeffries:Everyone wants to achieve something and that's completely natural and absolutely fine.
Sal Jeffries:And we need those structural forward, forward positioning goals.
Sal Jeffries:That's great, but it's not a done deal.
Sal Jeffries:You don't set up your vision 5 year, 10 year map, which is why my clients.
Sal Jeffries:And then we go, well, we're done.
Sal Jeffries:That's all we do.
Sal Jeffries:You know, it's an iteration process because the future is fluid, everything is moving.
Sal Jeffries:Evolution.
Sal Jeffries:And by designing everything from civilization to business to how we think is an evolving process.
Sal Jeffries:So if iteration isn't put into those goal setting processes, then the goals often could become obsolete.
Sal Jeffries:So not only you're working for an obsolete goal, then when you get that goal, it's probably going to feel not what you want because it isn't relevant any longer.
Sal Jeffries:So I think there's something really salient about assessing how you're going all the time.
Sal Jeffries:Really looking at like, what am I, why do I need to be productive, what I need to get done, how am I managing my time, my sleep and you know, my workflow and my boundaries.
Sal Jeffries:And that's not a done deal.
Sal Jeffries:Like, you know, you do your Abigail's process once and then you're all fixed for life.
Sal Jeffries:It's, it's a, it's a revisit, revive, a revisiting of that process and iteration.
Sal Jeffries:That's what I'm hearing now.
Sal Jeffries:One thing that strikes me, you said it earlier, we get 24 hours in the day and it's funny, isn't it?
Sal Jeffries:The world's unequal for a lot of reasons, but it's not on time.
Sal Jeffries:There are 24 hours delivered to each human being and no one gets any more or any less.
Sal Jeffries:What we do with it is our choice to some degree.
Sal Jeffries:And there's a lot of things that aren't our choice.
Sal Jeffries:Now you spoke about this and we've spoken this just a little bit beforehand, how you make, how you, how you own your time.
Sal Jeffries:And I was really interested in that, that concept because I hear sometimes people saying, oh, you know, I've got so much on, I've got this client wants this and it feel very at effect from the world.
Sal Jeffries:The world's is all happening to them and I'm very much trying to get as much cause.
Sal Jeffries:So people have autonomy.
Sal Jeffries:But how do you work with this?
Sal Jeffries:How do you see this like making your choices around time.
Abigail Barnes:I love this question.
Abigail Barnes:We fundamentally have to recognize that every single one of us is in a different set of circumstances.
Abigail Barnes:And as you were saying earlier, our life is constantly evolving.
Abigail Barnes:So what worked yesterday won't work today, might not work tomorrow.
Abigail Barnes:We need to set 3 year, 5 year, 10 year goals so that we have a direction.
Abigail Barnes:Otherwise we are just going to be an airplane in the sky going all over the place.
Abigail Barnes:But we also need to understand that things are going to change.
Abigail Barnes: al setting theory back in the: Abigail Barnes:And just to come back to that airplane analogy that I'm sure people are aware of, that airplanes are constantly adjusting their path on a journey from A to B because they are encountering wind, for example.
Abigail Barnes:So they cannot start a plane out on the journey and then just leave it to fly from point A to point B.
Abigail Barnes:They have to tweak it and trim it and make sure that you get to the destination that it is that you want to go to.
Abigail Barnes:So when it comes to your time and your time management, you are able to look at, well, these are the circumstances that I have, these are the responsibilities that I have right here, right now.
Abigail Barnes:And the 888 formula is going to change with you throughout your life as maybe you have a young family, maybe you have a new business, maybe you have a year end, maybe you have just bought a business, maybe you're onboarding a lot more clients.
Abigail Barnes:But it's about recognizing with the bookends, with the fact that scientifically our bodies do need to sleep and to rest.
Abigail Barnes:If we are not long term looking after our health and our wellbeing, we are inevitably going to need to make time for our illness.
Abigail Barnes:The body, like a car, needs to be maintained.
Abigail Barnes:Everything needs an mot, everything needs to be rested.
Abigail Barnes:We charge our mobile phones every single night.
Abigail Barnes:So yes, in the short term you can not get as much sleep as your body actually needs, but it is not a long term strategy.
Sal Jeffries:Such a powerful point.
Sal Jeffries:And my own experience of life, my own journey, personally and professionally has looked at how we, well, we have embodied cognition.
Sal Jeffries:So all our thoughts are embodied.
Sal Jeffries:You cannot have thinking and the experience of being you or me or any of us without a body, it just doesn't work.
Sal Jeffries:The brain is the structure, the mind is the process.
Sal Jeffries:The mind is also fed by all the somatic signals from the body.
Sal Jeffries:So if our body is not slept and it hasn't got rest, the brain hasn't rest and refreshed and cleared out all the detritus between the neuronal pathways, all these sorts of things which are well studied now, then we are sub functioning.
Sal Jeffries:And there's a, there's a point when that will go bad for all of us.
Sal Jeffries:And the interesting thing is it's not normally the next day.
Sal Jeffries:I mean, you might feel a bit tired.
Sal Jeffries:I know I do if I miss sleep, but it will probably go wrong the next decade and then, and then you can't buy that back.
Sal Jeffries:So it's really, really important to have utter respect for the functionality.
Sal Jeffries:And I want to speak to something which is a bit more sensitive and I know that you had an episode around 12 years ago which made you experience the world very differently, which was health related.
Sal Jeffries:Are you okay to share with us a little bit more about that experience?
Abigail Barnes:So I said at the beginning that I worked in finance for 10 years and that my 888 formula was very much long hours of work, short hours of sleep.
Abigail Barnes: And in: Abigail Barnes:Now for transparency, it wasn't the direct result of the work schedule, but the work schedule did impact on my general health and wellbeing.
Abigail Barnes:And I share the story to reiterate to people that we never know what's around the corner.
Abigail Barnes:I was 32.
Abigail Barnes:This happens to one in a million people.
Abigail Barnes:The doctors were telling me and Sal, it's really helped me to recognize the value of every single moment, every single minute, every single opportunity that we get on this rock that we call home.
Sal Jeffries:Amazing, well, profound experience.
Sal Jeffries:I'm glad to hear that you are well and got through it.
Sal Jeffries:And it reminds me of the prominent story by Jill Bolt, I believe the author was, who was a neuroscientific researcher and she had a stroke and she wrote a book on it called Her Stroke of Genius.
Sal Jeffries:And it's a very powerful account which she actually amazingly remembered the experience because no one's actually documented this.
Sal Jeffries:It's fascinating and I was really, you know, blown away when I read it about the left brain experience and the right brain experience.
Sal Jeffries:But to come through a health experience like you have is an awakening, right?
Sal Jeffries:I guess it's an awakening.
Sal Jeffries:Jeopardy and near death experiences can really sharpen our attention of our mortality.
Sal Jeffries:And I did some training years ago with an existential coach and we was using existentialism in coaching.
Sal Jeffries:Now existentialism can seem a little bit hard edged and kind of a little bit morose, such as you're all going to die and nothing has meaning.
Sal Jeffries:It's not as simplistic as that.
Sal Jeffries:But what my guide who was teaching me at the time was like, look, if you know you're going to die, what are you going to do about the time when you're still here?
Sal Jeffries:You know, because you don't get forever.
Sal Jeffries:The life is precious like a diamond because it is rare and it's not this superfluous.
Sal Jeffries:Let's be machine like and get more done.
Sal Jeffries:Because that's operating like a machine, not a human.
Sal Jeffries:And if you tune into your finality and be all right with that.
Sal Jeffries:No, no, no one wants to go.
Sal Jeffries:Right.
Sal Jeffries:We all want to be here because it's great fun being alive.
Sal Jeffries:But you know, okay, we don't get forever.
Sal Jeffries:So what am I going to do while I'm here that is really present and what matters.
Sal Jeffries:And I think that's such a profound thing to come through a stroke and to have your focus of life sharpened like that.
Sal Jeffries:And perhaps for, for those of you who haven't had that experience, what are some of the emotive lessons that you took from that experience?
Sal Jeffries:How did you redefine the way you think about time and productivity after having the stroke and coming back from that?
Abigail Barnes:I'd say the biggest lessons that I got from the stroke.
Abigail Barnes:The first one would be gratitude.
Abigail Barnes:The second one would be enjoyment.
Abigail Barnes:The third one would be living.
Abigail Barnes:The fourth one would be finding forgiveness.
Abigail Barnes:The fifth one would probably be making the most of every single thing that you have, whether it's what you want at that moment in time or not.
Abigail Barnes:And when I'm saying about gratitude.
Abigail Barnes:So I got a second chance.
Abigail Barnes:I begged for the second chance for the opportunity to do what it was that I felt that I had come here to do, that I didn't, that, that I wasn't doing for whatever reason up until that moment in time.
Abigail Barnes:And it was in those moments, Sal, when I actually thought that I was going to die that I realized and got the wake up call that I had come here to do other things.
Abigail Barnes:I just didn't know what they were and I didn't know how to find them.
Abigail Barnes:And I was very much stuck in the Victim mentality of the world was doing things to me and I felt like I had no control and I felt like I had no time.
Abigail Barnes:And these were the stories I was telling.
Abigail Barnes:And we get what we believe is possible for us.
Abigail Barnes:And the stroke helped me to see things in a different way, to tell different stories, and to recognize that even when the worst thing happens, there is still a silver lining to it, because you're still here.
Abigail Barnes:And I will say to anybody who says, it's too late, I can't do it.
Abigail Barnes:I don't have enough money, I don't have enough time.
Abigail Barnes:You're still here.
Abigail Barnes:You still have breath.
Abigail Barnes:There is still a chance.
Abigail Barnes:Give it a go.
Sal Jeffries:Oh, that's so elegant.
Sal Jeffries:That's really powerful.
Sal Jeffries:I'm really struck by that.
Sal Jeffries:Sure, there was the famous Greek philosopher.
Sal Jeffries:It could have been Aristotle, but I can't remember my Greek specialist.
Sal Jeffries:But one of them was learning up to.
Sal Jeffries:It could be Seneca anyway, but they were learning up to the minute of their death.
Sal Jeffries:They're like, no, no, there's still breath.
Sal Jeffries:We can still learn.
Sal Jeffries:And there's something more really magical about that.
Sal Jeffries:I know in biology there's this elegant description.
Sal Jeffries:I think it's Andreas Weber, who talks about, life wants more of life.
Sal Jeffries:All living systems, life wants more of life.
Sal Jeffries:It's this beautiful, powerful driving force which is innate in all humans, in all nature.
Sal Jeffries:It's a very elegant thing.
Sal Jeffries:And what's fascinating, I find, is our conceptual mind.
Sal Jeffries:You know, the mind of the director, the business owner, the coach, the time management specialist says, no, no, no, no, no, no, I'm really important, I must do all this stuff.
Sal Jeffries:It's really, really important.
Sal Jeffries:And it's not that it's not important, but as a hierarchy, it's like, is it really aligning to the deeper, more that nourishing ness of about how do you spend your time in your day?
Sal Jeffries:There's stuff to get done and yes, some people have gotten a bit of drudgery, but how you approach it is really interesting.
Sal Jeffries:I want to touch on a point here that you've said several times already.
Sal Jeffries:I want to really flag this.
Sal Jeffries:You mentioned the stories we tell ourselves, and you're not talking about some flippant like, oh, you know, the stories of the mind, the structural stories, are the coherence that keep us together.
Sal Jeffries:Whether that's, I'm a busy, I'm a busy mum, you know, I haven't got time for this, or, you know, I'm a midlifer, I can't set up that new business.
Sal Jeffries:I'm too old.
Sal Jeffries:The story literally becomes this repeating narrative which is then imbued through different structures of the brain and our mind works to prove that's the case.
Sal Jeffries:And therein the story becomes solid.
Sal Jeffries:There's a sort of solidity to it, doesn't really move and yet part of our mind can go, is that true?
Sal Jeffries:Is there someone else who hasn't done that?
Sal Jeffries:Is there someone else who's, you know, gone to University at 60, has someone else, you know, left a long term relationship was a flourish as a single person.
Sal Jeffries:Whatever these stories might tell us and there's always an example in the world, I find that someone's done something we're interested in and that is a very powerful exemplar that we can, we can tune into when we're, when we're choosing to change those stories about, you know, we don't have time.
Sal Jeffries:I haven't got enough staff found out from resources, so I want to have stories.
Sal Jeffries:Now you mentioned earlier about human design.
Sal Jeffries:We're talking a deeper level here.
Sal Jeffries:Now I know those who are staying with this productivity hacks and strategies like, so Abigail's got them all over your website.
Sal Jeffries:We're going to put links on that.
Sal Jeffries:There's all these strategic process.
Sal Jeffries:But while I have the gift of your time, Abigail, I want to go deeper with this stuff because the depth will nourish the practical, I believe so there's all these practical skills you teach people which are amazing and there's a lot of time for that on your website and other times.
Sal Jeffries:But tell me more about human design because this is infusing some of your thinking right now.
Sal Jeffries:Could you say more about.
Sal Jeffries:So we understand what that is and perhaps how that comes together with how we think and deal with time on.
Abigail Barnes:The journey of rebuilding from 12 years.
Abigail Barnes:So since having the stroke to now, I have explored all sorts of different things out and gone around the world, found gurus, asked questions and constantly been open to information.
Abigail Barnes:That's how I came across human design.
Abigail Barnes: discovered by somebody in the: Abigail Barnes:And it works on the basis of astrology, kabbalah, the chakra system and other areas, the I Ching.
Abigail Barnes:And it's based on the time you were born, the date you were born, the place you were born, and the understanding is that everybody has a different design.
Abigail Barnes:And the thing that I love about human design from a time management point of view is I use it with my clients to confirm their intuition, to help them to recognize that what they know is what they know and that it's not just something that they're good at.
Abigail Barnes:It actually is their design and it almost gives them permission.
Abigail Barnes:When I first came across it, it gave me permission to understand that one of my greatest skill sets is the ability to spot somebody else's skills and then the ability to sell it to others.
Abigail Barnes:And these are the gates and these are the channels that are active within my own human design.
Abigail Barnes:You mentioned earlier about how when we are looking at things in life and I just want to touch on the reticular activating system because I feel like this would be beneficial.
Sal Jeffries:I love the reticular activating system.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah.
Sal Jeffries:So please share it.
Abigail Barnes:It's good for the podcast.
Abigail Barnes:I walk one foot in strategy, one foot in spirituality.
Abigail Barnes:But the reticular activating system is how once we decide that we want something or we want to do something, we keep seeing it over and over and over again.
Abigail Barnes:And you mentioned that I am sentence and statement as well.
Abigail Barnes:I am busy.
Abigail Barnes:Then your brain is going to filter for proof that you are busy.
Abigail Barnes:If you are learning more about yourself, your brain is going to find you more things about yourself.
Abigail Barnes:And I put this in because human design, like any of the other different modalities, maybe your audience have tried, maybe they've done the very, very strategic discs and MBTIs, and then maybe they have done astrology and maybe they have looked at the other, more esoteric end of the spectrum.
Abigail Barnes:If we can get to the place where we say I am somebody who is open to change my mind, to consider new possibilities, then we will allow ourselves to be an evolving human being.
Abigail Barnes:This is how we become more productive.
Abigail Barnes:Because I am somebody who is willing to question my stories.
Abigail Barnes:I am somebody who is willing to explore why I do what I do versus I am taking and keeping on the labels that somebody else has given me or society has given me.
Abigail Barnes:I am a parent, therefore I can't.
Abigail Barnes:Well, says who?
Abigail Barnes:Well, I just don't have the time.
Abigail Barnes:You have the time to do whatever you want to do.
Abigail Barnes:Like, there is no rulebook for how we use our time.
Abigail Barnes:It is personal.
Abigail Barnes:And perhaps if I invest in my health and wellbeing, it will make me a better parent, it will make me a better partner, it will make me a better business owner.
Abigail Barnes:If I am running my business, tired, unwell, because I don't allow myself to go and work out, how is that going to inspire my clients?
Abigail Barnes:They I'm not practicing what I preach.
Abigail Barnes:Yes, make time for your health and wellbeing, but I don't have time to do that, we have to live by the words that we are sharing with others.
Abigail Barnes:And I'll just add into this, the energy doesn't lie.
Abigail Barnes:We are all now becoming energy readers and we can feel people's authenticity and we can actually even read words in emails.
Abigail Barnes:So if you're angry, maybe don't send that email, write it, come back to it and rewrite it.
Abigail Barnes:Especially if you want to build the relationship.
Sal Jeffries:Such valid, solid advice there.
Sal Jeffries:Good point.
Sal Jeffries:So interesting about the human design approach and modality.
Sal Jeffries:Obviously you've shared it a little bit with me and it's fascinating.
Sal Jeffries:I know some of those other modalities, but I haven't heard it coalesce like that, which is really intriguing.
Sal Jeffries:What I do, what I want to add to that layer to that is the I am statement.
Sal Jeffries:Now again, it's just the normal run of the mill people will say, you know, I am this, I'm that, I'm a founder with a lot of demands and you know, I'm a business owner and a parent.
Sal Jeffries:But the I am statement links it to identity.
Sal Jeffries:So when we have something linked to our identity, we own it.
Sal Jeffries:So the terrible phrase which is literally banned in my client base, like no one's allowed to say I am busy.
Sal Jeffries:Right?
Sal Jeffries:Just don't.
Sal Jeffries:Because it's just, it's just doesn't mean anything.
Sal Jeffries:I, I'm committed, I'm productive, I'm taking a little more than I should.
Sal Jeffries:I can, we can work with that.
Sal Jeffries:That's accuracy, that's nuance.
Sal Jeffries:I am busy is an excuse.
Sal Jeffries:It's like I am stressed.
Sal Jeffries:It doesn't mean anything.
Sal Jeffries:You need to be accurate with your language.
Sal Jeffries:I had a great master once who said the right naming equals right understanding.
Sal Jeffries:And it's powerful, the use of language, because language is an expression of the mind or the mind body system expressing the sense sensory, deep level human experience.
Sal Jeffries:So while we might think, oh, it's just a word, just a label, it isn't just.
Sal Jeffries:Just is a diminishing word.
Sal Jeffries:It is a powerful identifier and a belief structure.
Sal Jeffries:And as you said about the RAs, our brain goes, oh, well that's salient.
Sal Jeffries:So let's give you evidence to the fact that you are, you know, you don't have time and you are this, you are that.
Sal Jeffries:So I would invite us to also think about how many I am statements linked to time and productivity, or lack thereof, we make and then look at reconstructing that sentence.
Sal Jeffries:Does that, does that make sense to you?
Abigail Barnes:100%.
Abigail Barnes:And I'd just like to Add in a new I am statement for people who are in the situation you were just explaining.
Abigail Barnes:I am open to see things differently.
Abigail Barnes:That gives you, your body and your brain permission to accept that maybe you do feel busy, but you're open to see things differently.
Abigail Barnes:And then now you're allowing your brain to pull in different perspectives, different opportunities.
Sal Jeffries:Beautiful.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah.
Sal Jeffries:Such a powerful language distinction.
Sal Jeffries:And what, as you say, well, that does.
Sal Jeffries:It puts you in a frame of openness or a frame of receptivity rather than a frame of stagnation.
Sal Jeffries:The I am busy or whatever thing.
Sal Jeffries:Fascinating stuff.
Sal Jeffries:So we started talking about time management productivity.
Sal Jeffries:And I know a lot of people, I know your own work.
Sal Jeffries:You go into perhaps actual strategic plays into this, like you said about the time sheet.
Sal Jeffries:And there's steps to take.
Sal Jeffries:But what we've spoken about today is more of the thinking behind it, the, the, the feeling, the more deeper quality of the why question.
Sal Jeffries:Why be more productive?
Sal Jeffries:Why manage one's time?
Sal Jeffries:And I think that's a really guiding force to then go on.
Sal Jeffries:And I invite all our listeners to connect with Abigail again.
Sal Jeffries:We'll leave links in the show notes to connect with the processes to do perhaps your due diligence and do your time audits and stuff.
Sal Jeffries:And I've done that sort of thing.
Sal Jeffries:But why are we doing the time audit?
Sal Jeffries:Why AM I using AVGA's 888 model, I think is a really powerful thing.
Sal Jeffries:I've seen it with a client I was coaching recently with changing their whole business and their life and they have a challenge with the use of technology.
Sal Jeffries:They're in the tech field and we were talking about, you know, locking the phone away, getting the dumb phone, all these strategies.
Sal Jeffries:And my guidance was none of it will stick.
Sal Jeffries:None of it.
Sal Jeffries:You'll go back to at some point because your purpose is.
Sal Jeffries:Needs to be bigger than your behavior.
Sal Jeffries:So if your purpose is big, such as I want to enrich and have a fulfilling life because you never know when it's not going to be here.
Sal Jeffries:Very different to saying, oh, you know, I'll make sure I get to bed early at 9 tonight.
Sal Jeffries:And it just doesn't stick.
Sal Jeffries:So there's something purposeful which is more transcendent and spiritual for sure, and greater than the individual, which I think can lead our decisions around how we choose to use time and what we do with time, which I think is interesting and I wonder what your thoughts on that.
Sal Jeffries:This.
Sal Jeffries:I was spoken in quite a meta conversation here about that.
Sal Jeffries:But the, the forces behind our decisions.
Sal Jeffries:How do you use that to then align with the people you're working with to make those strategic changes.
Sal Jeffries:What's your way of working with that?
Abigail Barnes:In my experience, I think one of the biggest things to consider here is your inner child.
Abigail Barnes:And this isn't something that we've mentioned on the conversation yet today.
Abigail Barnes:And again, this is a whole great big rabbit hole that you can go down.
Abigail Barnes:There is generally something inside of you that is trying to get your attention.
Abigail Barnes:There is something that is afraid of the next step.
Abigail Barnes:And yes, we can force ourselves to do the things, and yes, we can lock our phones away and yes, we can buy 15 different books and work with all sorts of different people.
Abigail Barnes:But if we're not listening to the root cause, then we are just going to be maintaining a garden that looks beautiful, but the weeds are going to keep coming back again and again and again.
Abigail Barnes:And somebody said to me a long time ago, I can help you to make your bushes look amazing, like topiary, but if there is rot in the roots of this bush, this, this hedge, then it's going to die.
Abigail Barnes:And I use this analogy when it comes to the question that you were just asking.
Abigail Barnes:We have different things that are rooted in our life from the past that are coming up again and again and again.
Abigail Barnes:And we are trying to solution them and we are trying to use a prescription that somebody else's, and we are trying to follow a blueprint that is not our own to move past it.
Abigail Barnes:And you, we started talking about what is enough and we are trying to be enough.
Abigail Barnes:Now, if we would sit and spend some time to hear ourselves and to meditate and to journal and to walk outside and to ask our inner self, our inner child, whatever you want to call it, maybe this is a little bit too esoteric, but they will give you an answer the first time you ask.
Abigail Barnes:They won't give you an answer because you have been ignoring them for so long.
Abigail Barnes:But the more you practice, the more you listen to them, the more they will speak to you.
Abigail Barnes:And it might be that they'll say, I don't want to go to bed yet because you've been working me so hard all day, I haven't had time for myself.
Abigail Barnes:And what does time for myself look like?
Abigail Barnes:Well, maybe actually I want to read a book, or maybe I want to go for a walk, or maybe I want to finish work at 7 o'clock on a Wednesday so that I can go to my Yin yoga class.
Abigail Barnes:Whatever it is that you are not allowing yourself to do will just come back again and again and again and again.
Abigail Barnes:And you will become that draconian parent teacher society that you are saying has been telling you what to do.
Abigail Barnes:You become that in essence, and we're talking about this at the end of the podcast.
Abigail Barnes:And again, this is a whole dog conversation, but in essence, time management productivity really comes down to how you want to manage yourself, how you want to run yourself, how you want to parent yourself, how you want to organize yourself.
Abigail Barnes:And if you try and do it someone else's way, it's not going to work long term.
Abigail Barnes:You have to be aligned and on the same page with yourself because this is your life and it is your time.
Sal Jeffries:Beautiful.
Sal Jeffries:Nicely wrapped up with such a powerful point.
Sal Jeffries:I'm going to bring us to a close there because that's just absorbed into my mind, what you said there.
Sal Jeffries:It's really elegant, really powerful.
Sal Jeffries:And I think that's the energy and the presence of mind behind any further action.
Sal Jeffries:Because if you have that presence of mind, then you can use a strategy, one of your wonderful techniques and strategies.
Sal Jeffries:But with that presence of mind, that attitude, that value, that quality, you're going to get a very different result as opposed to using your strategies with an old mindset.
Sal Jeffries:So, wow, deep stuff.
Sal Jeffries:It's funny, I met someone recently and they said, oh, God, you go deep and talk.
Sal Jeffries:I'm like, I didn't see any other way to talk.
Sal Jeffries:Just.
Sal Jeffries:I'm not interested in surface talk.
Sal Jeffries:I'm not here for long enough.
Sal Jeffries:You gotta go deep.
Sal Jeffries:Abigail, I really.
Sal Jeffries:Yeah, I really appreciate you going deep.
Sal Jeffries:And because we could have gone into all the tactics and stuff which.
Sal Jeffries:And we're going to leave just to remind of you, this listener, there are going to be links in the show, notes for all the tactical stuff, which are brilliant tool wise, but the modus operandi behind them.
Sal Jeffries:I was really intrigued to get Abigail's mind and understanding.
Sal Jeffries:I think we've got a good insight on that.
Sal Jeffries:So thank you.
Abigail Barnes:I was just going to say, if we are getting on the boat to go to Possibility island and people put you on the boat, force you on the boat, bribe you on the boat, guilt trip, you on the boat, FOMO you on the boat, you are going to have regrets halfway on the journey, it is much, much better that you understand yourself and you choose to get on the boat to go to Possibility Island.
Abigail Barnes:And what I mean by that is that you are actively saying, the way I am living my life right now isn't working.
Abigail Barnes:I'm ready to see things differently.
Abigail Barnes:I'm ready to consider new possibilities, I'm ready to audit my time.
Abigail Barnes:I'm ready to make changes.
Abigail Barnes:I'm ready, I'm ready.
Abigail Barnes:It's my time.
Abigail Barnes:Let's go.
Abigail Barnes:The Alternative Stay where you are, but nobody can force you, push you, make you make those decisions for yourself.
Abigail Barnes:Thank you so much for having me on the show to share this.
Sal Jeffries:Likewise thank you Abigail for sharing your time and wisdom and and just the last note for listeners.
Sal Jeffries:I get to be on Abigail so keep we'll put some links on for that one as well, but they're all matters around time, mindset and human performance so that will be available for to you as well.
Sal Jeffries:Until the next time, dear listener, take care.
Sal Jeffries:Thank you so much for listening.
Sal Jeffries:If you enjoyed the episode, please subscribe and if a friend would benefit from hearing this, do send it on to them as well.
Sal Jeffries:If you would like to get in touch yourself then you can go to my website which is Sal jeffries.com spelled S A L J E double F E R I E S Saljefferies.com hit the get in touch link and there you can send me a direct message.
Sal Jeffries:If you'd like to go one step further and learn whether coaching can help you overcome a challenge or a block in your life, then do reach out and I offer a call where we can discuss how this may be able to help you.
Sal Jeffries:Until the next time, take care.
