Episode 44

How to deal with pain in your body with Jamie Webb

Published on: 20th June, 2024

In this episode, I'm joined by Jamie Webb, a sports therapist, to discuss how to deal with physical pain and the connection between our physical and psychological states.

Jamie emphasises the importance of understanding that pain is a signal, not necessarily an indicator of tissue damage, and that our thoughts, emotions, and life experiences can manifest physically in our bodies.

We explore the polyvagal theory, which explains the different states of our nervous system (fight, flight, freeze, and flow) and how our bodies and emotions are interconnected. Jamie shares his approach of working with clients holistically, considering their physical, emotional, and psychological aspects, and the need to sometimes address the underlying psychological factors to alleviate physical pain.

I trust our conversation add further understanding of the mind-body connection and the significance of being adaptable and able to transition between different nervous system states for overall well-being.

Key Learnings:

1. Pain is a signal, not necessarily an indicator of tissue damage.

2. Our thoughts, emotions, and life experiences can manifest physically in our bodies.

3. The polyvagal theory explains the different states of our nervous system (fight, flight, freeze, and flow) and how our bodies and emotions are interconnected.

4. Addressing underlying psychological factors can help alleviate physical pain.

5. Being adaptable and able to transition between different nervous system states is crucial for overall well-being.

Show Notes:

00:00 - Introduction

02:15 - Jamie's background and approach

06:00 - Understanding pain and its connection to emotions and life experiences

14:00 - The mind-body connection and the role of beliefs

19:00 - Polyvagal theory and nervous system states

27:00 - The importance of adaptability and transitioning between states

35:00 - Identity, emotions, and their physical manifestations

44:00 - Body language and its impact on emotional states

51:00 - Integrating psychological and physical approaches for holistic healing

56:00 - The role of breathwork and final thoughts

You can contact Jamie here

Transcript
Jamie Webb:

Working on the idea that pain is protection.

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Pain is a threat.

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Every emotion has a

physical representation.

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So if you spend a long time in an emotion

that will, you know, shut down some parts

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of your body, maybe open up others, and

that will undoubtedly be one of the things

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that's holding you in a pain pattern.

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If something's not working for you,

you're the captain of the ship.

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Sal: Hello and welcome.

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The body and the mind are one system.

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As you regular listeners of my show

know, that's how I see things and I

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see that the world of coaching and

human performance is fragmented.

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Now, when you go to someone for a pain

in your shoulder, a lower back issue or

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a niggly knee, you might see a sports

massage therapist, a physio, someone

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like that, and they may treat that area.

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But I have the fortune of working

with Jamie, who's a sports therapist

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who treats the whole system.

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Now he's worked on me,

so I know firsthand how.

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Jamie looks at things in the body and may

not be the, let's say the expected view

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of how you work with the physical body.

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So if you have pain, if you have

challenges, you have mental blocks

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today, this one's a good one for you.

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So we're going to get into it.

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Jamie, welcome to Mindset,

Mood and Movement Show.

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It's good to have you on.

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Jamie Webb: Thanks for reminding me Sal.

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Really looking forward to it.

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Sal: Pleasure.

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Yeah.

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Pleasure.

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Jamie, what's, take us through,

what do you, what do you do through

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your day when you're with people?

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What do you actually do?

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Jamie Webb: Well, um, so in terms

of the, the work that I do, it's, I

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think, I think the key thing is to

say it's bespoke for every person.

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I think that's one of my, um,

big drivers, my big beliefs.

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we, um, at the clinic, we talk about

meeting people exactly where they're at.

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So to give you an over the top example,

if someone comes in having searched

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out a physiotherapy type search term

online, um, and, coming with a knee

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problem and, and there's a realization

just from my experience that, um, you

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know, the, the, the flippant way of

saying, and I've never said this to

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a client is it's not your knee that's

the problem, it's your entire life.

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you don't want to hear that.

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Really, but it's about from that point,

um, starting from a, a physical, um, start

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point, say this knee in case in point,

and then seeing where that takes us.

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we always start, you know, because my

qualification is a, sports therapy.

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I'm not trying to be a psychologist, but

it's really important that we acknowledge.

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the, the mental aspect.

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Um, so we get to know, the people

in the room, talk about life.

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it's really important, that our

clients are able to be as open as

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they can be, sometimes it's difficult

to be open with someone you've just

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met or, and obviously that rapport

develops, through, through treatment.

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so we kind of gain the trust on the, on

the, the physical side of things, um,

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using our biomechanical expertise and,

as you alluded to in the introduction.

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piecing it all together.

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we might be, for a knee problem,

we'd certainly be looking

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at what's going on the foot.

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At the hip, at the pelvis, um, but

even all the way up to the neck.

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Um, and been plenty of cases whereby,

we've, we've seen dramatic improvement

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in people's symptoms by, you know,

even releasing off someone's jaw,

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for example, and it, it positively

affects the symptoms in their knee.

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so yeah, that's a, that's a brief outline.

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Sal: so what's super interesting about

you, Jamie, is that, so I came to see

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you a while back and I've, uh, for, for

our listeners, I've had this kind of

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recurrent shoulder issue for quite a long

time and I've done a lot of work on it.

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I've done my own rehab.

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I've got a lot of knowledge about

the body, not as much as Jamie, but

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a lot to kind of do myself work.

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I've seen other practitioners and

it just hasn't, hasn't resolved.

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And what struck me was if you've got

a chronic issue, then when I went to

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Jamie, when I went to Jamie, he was

like, It's probably not a shoulder issue

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because it would have healed by now.

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You know, if it's going on for that

long, it's not about your shoulder.

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And it resonated with me because when

I'm in a coaching space with someone

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and they are wanting to change how they

think and they're trying to do behavioral

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change, it's not about the behavior.

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So I'm already seeing things

in these parallel views.

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So I might look at someone's

belief pattern and, and the

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architecture of their mind.

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And Jamie, you look at people in

the architecture of their body,

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but there is such a crossover.

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No one.

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Has a mind without a body.

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Everyone lives through a body.

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Now if, um, If you're looking at someone

like you said there, the person comes

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in like me with a shoulder or knee issue

and says, Hey, I've got this problem.

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Can you help?

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What's, what's some of the stuff that

you're seeing that isn't physical?

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Because of course for those

of us who've got the physical,

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we think that's the issue.

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But what is it you will see are

patterns and trends that come

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in with some of your clients?

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that are more likely part of

the pain problem or the injury

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problem that you're seeing.

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Jamie Webb: Yeah, sure.

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Um, would it be okay to talk about

your condition in, in more detail?

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So I'll just, cause I

can physically see you.

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Sal: Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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I'm a live case

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right?

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Jamie Webb: yeah, exactly.

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Yeah.

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So it's the one that I can see right now.

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I haven't got my notes in front

of me, so it will be from memory.

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Um, but on a purely physical level, um,

I think the, the, I've made a career

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out of treating what looks most wonky.

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Um, uh, very technical.

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You see it in all the textbooks, but,

now, now, for example, In your case, as

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I remember it, we've, we've obviously,

we have a right shoulder issue.

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Um, and I'm, I'm less interested

in giving things labels.

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I'm more interested about

what we can do about things.

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I think, a critique of, I've got

some textbooks on my, on my, on

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my books, on my shelves up there.

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And the pages and pages of these labels

that don't actually mean anything.

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Um, I mean, to.

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To use your, um, case as an example,

we, we could have labeled them,

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if we wish, a, a tendinopathy or

something like that, which if you

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translate the Latin just means there's

something wrong with the tendon.

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now we don't know that.

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And we're just gonna label and

labels can be very negative.

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I think, um, you know,

you've got something to say.

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I've there's something wrong with me.

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and I, and I don't think

that that is helpful.

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Um, also, I mean, to turn

up is a really good example.

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Um, they, um, It used

to be called tendinitis.

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You might have heard of that,

was inflammation of the tendon

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and they showed, well, actually

there's no inflammation.

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So that was wrong.

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Um, then they showed that it was

tendinosis, which is suggested,

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degeneration of the tendon, which

isn't necessarily the case either.

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Um, so you can have degeneration of

the tendon and no pain and that's

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very, very common in all of us.

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Um, and so that's why they came

up with the label tendinopathy.

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There's something wrong with the tendon.

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But is there?

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Um, and this is the way you start getting

into the pain science, uh, of it as well.

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You can have, you know, what we would

consider, physical issues in the

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tissues is, is the, is the phrase that

we use, but actually no pain at all.

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Um, but equally you can have no issues

in the tissues and pain as well.

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So to bring it back to you, um, your

point, the first thing I picked up with

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yourself through that, right side, we

knew where the, where the, um, where

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the issue was, we knew that there

was some, um, pain on some movements.

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I can't remember the abs one,

some rotator cuff, most likely,

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I think some press ups as well.

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so that gave us a clue as to the

actual muscles that were involved

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in the pain mechanism, if you like.

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And then I, then we had a look at you

and then we had a look at how you were

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lining up and the key things, the two

things that I noticed was I'm, I'm

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overly obsessed with people's armpits.

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I'm a bit special like that.

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so, um, we had a look at your, we

took a little picture of you from

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the back and we got the ruler, the

iPhone feature, very useful for me.

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And we saw that the right shoulder I

think was lower than the left shoulder.

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So something's pulled

down on the right side.

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And with yourself, which is a really,

really common, double whammy is

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we saw that on the, on that same

right side, the pelvis was elevated.

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Um, so again, same, you

can use the ruler as well.

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You can do it by eye as well.

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I like to take pictures.

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with client's consent, of course, just

they're involved in the process as

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well, so they can see what's going on.

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Um, and we could see that it

was, if you like, on the side of

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everybody, it was, the shoulder

was down and the pelvis was up.

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So we had some short tissues here,

and then I used my biomechanical,

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okay, what muscles are bridging that

gap, what muscles could be pulling

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you into that position, um, uh,

and kind of, we then go from there.

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With yourself, Sal, this wasn't the case,

but it can be the case with many people.

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It is, cause I know you're, super open

to it based on your own past experience,

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but it, one of the things, and again, if

I speak to, more conventional therapists,

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they're all going back, um, uh, the

view, people say, Oh, what does, I'm

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a big believer in the hands on work.

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And, um, many people say, well,

you can't change anything.

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And.

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Well, they're probably right

from a pure physiological.

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If you've got a tandem with

degeneration, can I change that?

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Well, no, not really,

not certainly not there.

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And then maybe we can over

time if things improve.

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But, um, what you can do certainly is say

you have a belief, um, and a belief that,

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is, unhelpful or, or, or, or negative.

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If you believe that your pain is

due to a damaged tendon, then, um,

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we need to address that belief.

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Now, the way, my style, the way of

doing that would be to say, okay,

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well, as much as we did with you,

just kind of reinforce that message.

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Physiological healing time is six weeks.

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So if you had damaged it, and we talk

about the original, mechanism of injury,

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did anything go twang, snap or pop?

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Now, if anything doesn't go twang, snap

or pop, we can be reasonably sure, um,

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that nothing was wrong with it, really.

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Um, it was, you know, the

pain started at some point.

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The actual tissues were probably

very similar the day before.

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and at the point where they,

they felt pain, there might've

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been an increased load.

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And key thing is there might've

been an increase, we call it

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increased stress, maybe might've

been a nicer way of framing it.

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because increased stress suggests

increased physical stress, which

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absolutely can be a factor, but

increased emotional stress as well.

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And that can be a factor.

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Um, so yeah, correcting those.

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those beliefs that aren't, helpful.

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Um, and it's all good and well saying

that and me coming out with my spiel

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and stuff that I believe based on pain

science experience and biomechanics.

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But then the hands on work for me is

invaluable in that if I release, and

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you might intellectually, and you were

on the same page straight away Sal, of

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course, but intellectually you get what

I'm saying, but if I can use my hands,

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use the techniques that I've got to then

make you feel a difference there and then.

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then you start to believe.

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And what we've done there is we've

effect a mental change and that

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change happens there and then.

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And I think that's the most

kind of powerful way to work.

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Sal: Yeah.

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That's just so interesting.

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And thanks for elaborating that.

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So, uh, just for a bit of extra

context for, for our listener.

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Um, I've had this ongoing shoulder

pain for more than a year now.

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I train a lot.

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As you listen regularly, you'll know, I

do a lot of training, weight training,

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and I'm in reasonably good condition.

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And it just one day was just fried.

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The shoulder just did not want to work

and, and the things that never healed.

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And I did loads of.

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dedicated rehab work, micro movements on

the rotator cuffs, um, and when I spoke to

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Jamie, as he's alluded to, you know, it's,

it's not quote unquote attendant problem.

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This is something else in the system.

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And of course, peaks my interest because

when I look at systemic change in people,

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like, Oh yes, that's, of course, I

see this in the mental side of things.

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Um, but yeah, I think one of the

experiences you led to there, and

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I want to name is the distinction

between beliefs and experience.

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I know for a fact that it's

really hard to challenge beliefs.

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It's what I do on a daily basis.

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I've challenged people's beliefs

to help them change, but we believe

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what we believe, and they're sticky.

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They're really sticky beliefs, and the

way our predictive brain works, it needs

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to have, trust and, uh, evidence in, in

quite good measure to update that belief.

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So if you don't really trust

the person you're telling, who's

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saying, Hey, you haven't got any

pain in the shoulder, really.

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It's probably something else.

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If you don't trust them,

you're not going to buy it.

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But if you don't have an experience,

a valid experiential, whether you

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feel different, you see different,

whatever it is, then again,

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that doesn't shift the belief.

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And I think that's so

interesting what you said.

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the experiential change by your hands

on work, the naming of the potential,

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like is this a belief issue as well?

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And I've seen other people

with these, quote, problems and

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they don't ever get resolved.

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And of course I'm scratching

my head thinking, well, is that

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an emotional pattern for you?

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And just to note, I used to do a bit

more of the therapeutic side of my

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work rather than only the coaching.

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And I had a physio friend back in

the day and he sometimes referred

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people to me who he could not treat.

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They kept coming back with,

Oh, I still got a hip problem.

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Um, my hip flexors, you know,

firing badly or something like that.

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And he was smart enough to

know that, yeah, this is

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probably an emotional pattern.

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And then I would have the

conversation around it.

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What's been going on with you?

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What's in your backstory?

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Well, what, you know, tell me

something in confidence and I'd hear

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something about an echo from trauma,

um, a difficult time, something

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that's happened to this individual.

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and quote unquote, it was

expressing through the body.

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So I think if you're listening

now and you've got some physical

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stuff, be curious, be curious.

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Is this more than just a

niggly knee or tricky back?

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Is there something else going on?

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So now we've uncovered that, Jamie.

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What else?

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So pain really interests me

because pain is fascinating.

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It's subjective.

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It's in the nervous system.

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Um, it's, it's, it's very complex

and you understand it very well.

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But what is pain?

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Let's understand what is pain.

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So those of us who experience

headaches, backaches, whatever

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it is, what are we experiencing?

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Jamie Webb: Wow.

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okay.

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the book's written on

this cell, so thank you.

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Thank you for that.

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Thank you for that question.

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Um, so what is pain?

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so There's lots of, different, uh,

Theories, I guess, on what pain is,

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really, and you'd think there'd be an

absolute answer and there really isn't.

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Um, so, obviously, you've got the pain

where you've just, you know, walked

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into the drawers at home and banged

your shin, which is pretty damn painful.

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Um, and it's a And that, that's a very

physical, uh, stimulus and I think

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probably to cut a lot of kind of pain

science, neuroscience short, and, and

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summarize a lot of the theories and, and

a lot of the, um, um, books that I read.

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there's a few, pain definitions that

I use and I haven't got them right

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in front of me at the moment, but,

um, I'll kind of summarize them.

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And we're really working on the

idea that, pain, is protection.

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Pain is a threat.

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Um, so it's, it, you know, there's,

um, uh, fascinating, the work

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of, Louis Gifford, any, listeners

interested in following this further,

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I'd recommend his work highly.

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Um, And he works on it.

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One of his ideas of pain is the material

organisms model, which is basically

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that if you look at a single cell and

a single cell, if there's a noxious

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stimulus to a single cell, it knows

to go in the opposite direction.

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Equally, if it's a stimulus that it

likes, it knows to go towards that.

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and this is, again another book that

I'm reading at the moment, The Biology

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of Belief by Bruce Lipton, another

fabulous book, which is a microbiologist

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and goes into a little bit more detail.

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And so somehow, um, without going

into detail, microbiology detail, um,

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these cells know what's good for them

and they know what's bad for them.

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Now, Louis Gifford's work on the, um,

mature organisms, model, as in, in a much

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bigger organisms than single cellular,

which I think, we, very much, qualify in

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that category, um, it's the same thing.

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Pain is, is, is trying

to tell us something.

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It's trying to tell us to,

to move away from something.

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Now, in the, in the, in the, you know, the

drawers, walking into the drawers, it's

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telling you stop walking into drawers.

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It's a very, very simple mechanism.

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Um, you, you know, you, you, you fall

off, you step off a curb and you, and

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you, and you roll your ankle and the

pain is there to tell you stop it.

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It's, it's a mechanism to,

to try and jerk that back.

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And hopefully the pain is there

as protection as designed to get

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you to stop doing anything silly.

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Now, sometimes you go too far and, and

you know, maybe you're off balance.

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You can't correct that.

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That's when you're sprained ankle,

you'll get the inflammation.

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Now, that's easy if you've just

broken your leg and all these

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kind of examples that I'm giving.

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I think, I think the definition

still holds true for that as

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in, stop breaking your leg.

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You know, that's that immediate response.

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There's also the, the, the role that

pain plays in terms of if there is

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damaged tissues, which we've alluded

to previously, then there's a response.

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for healing straight away.

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then we get into the kind of chronic

pain, um, uh, bracket, which is

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actually being re rebranded at the

moment to persistent pain, which

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sounds just a little bit nicer.

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Um, and that's categorization is

anything longer than six weeks.

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And this is where we started

getting into the, the more

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tricky, uh, elements of pain.

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and in, in its case of what, what

is there, what is, what is pain?

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It's just telling us something

in our life needs to change.

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Now, if we take your shoulder as

an example, Sal, which is a really

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interesting one, it, perhaps, you know,

we're going to go slightly off tangent

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here, um, if that's okay, Sal, but

it's always the case of what, what was,

342

:

what was the, what was going on for you

when, when that, when that pain started?

343

:

Um, had you just purely increased

the load in your training?

344

:

Um, yeah.

345

:

Were you a little bit run down at

the time, which can be a factor.

346

:

Had you been ill, for example, there's

a massive correlation between your

347

:

immune system and pain as well.

348

:

or was there something in life that had

been, um, you know, stressing you out,

349

:

something on your mind a little bit.

350

:

And these things are, they can

be conscious as the example, but

351

:

they can be subconscious as well.

352

:

and that's where we go to the kind of

the more kind of hidden stuff, which

353

:

goes into, um, stuff from our past.

354

:

And, we, we don't hold ourselves tense.

355

:

intentionally.

356

:

We don't necessarily hold ourselves tense,

um, uh, in, in certain areas on purpose.

357

:

Um, but we do, and there

are reasons for that.

358

:

That can be physical trauma, can be

emotional trauma, emotional stress.

359

:

You know, I'm always intrigued as to,

where does PTSD, for example, post

360

:

traumatic stress disorder, where's that

crossover between stress and trauma?

361

:

Um, I know trauma theoretically

is, is held in, in, in different

362

:

space in, in, I think the frontal

lobe or whatever it's called.

363

:

So it feels very real and very current.

364

:

but all of these things are

reflected in our body over time.

365

:

Um, and to give you a really, present

current example, I, I, um, I started

366

:

a new gym a couple of days ago.

367

:

So I'm feeling the effects.

368

:

I'm pretty sore today.

369

:

Um, and I've just been doing

classes for a little while.

370

:

So it's nice to, um, just take

control back and just work on my

371

:

own things, for a few months now.

372

:

And I was really preaching the gym I was

working at previously didn't have mirrors

373

:

and I completely get the reasons for that.

374

:

Um, and that's great, but

this one does have mirrors.

375

:

I thought, you know, you can imagine me.

376

:

I'm a very much a form geek,

much like yourself, self style

377

:

when we're, when we're training.

378

:

And I was just doing my shoulder

press in the mirror and just.

379

:

you know, that childlike curiosity

that I have about everything.

380

:

And I was just looking at how

my ribcage was expanding as I

381

:

was doing the shoulder press.

382

:

And on the left side, it was really

opening nicely, possibly too much.

383

:

Um, and on the right side, it

was really kind of locked down.

384

:

I'm like, Ooh, Oh, I didn't know

that, where's that come from?

385

:

And me being me, I was like, Oh,

is that from a previous injury?

386

:

Or is that from, some old stuff or

the et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

387

:

So, um, I appreciate I've just gone off

on a tangent there a little bit, but

388

:

hopefully that, uh, goes, uh, in some

way to answering your original question.

389

:

Sal: you.

390

:

Yes.

391

:

And it's such a huge field.

392

:

We don't, uh, we respect the fact

that we're sort of giving the entry

393

:

level sound, you know, sort of just,

just understanding around pain.

394

:

If you want to go deeper.

395

:

Yes, we can leave some links in

the show notes to Louis Gifford.

396

:

But, um, but pain is interesting.

397

:

You're absolutely right, isn't it?

398

:

It's information in many ways.

399

:

It's a signal, it's a frequency, and

it's an intense frequency that one would

400

:

hear, and, you know, there's a lot of,

there's a, I think a cliché term that if

401

:

you don't listen to the whispers in your

body, you'll hear it when it screams,

402

:

and in some ways that's quite true.

403

:

I see these cases with people, yeah,

you probably see it, I see it with

404

:

burnout cases, where people are

working so hard and pushing so hard.

405

:

And I might be coaching this individual

and I'm like, okay, so you know where

406

:

this pathway is going, don't you?

407

:

And I'll, I'll name him, but

the pain, uh, can be superseded.

408

:

Our brain is very, very capable of

superseding physical and emotional

409

:

pain if we perceive it's important.

410

:

And I think this is one I

want to talk to you about.

411

:

I don't know if this is in your space,

but The meaning we make out of things,

412

:

and I'm very interested in this field

of semiotics, which is the blend of

413

:

looking at emotions, affects, you know,

how we think and feel about something.

414

:

Uh, what they mean, because

meaning is everything to humans.

415

:

We, we are meaning creatures.

416

:

So if it means something to

us, like, do we love someone or

417

:

do we care about, it matters.

418

:

So the meaning pain has for an

individual, which is whether

419

:

it's psychological or physical.

420

:

And if we stay with physical for

your experiences, what does it mean?

421

:

I think that's a really intriguing

question that we can get into

422

:

because if it's a, as you say,

persistent pain, like my shoulders,

423

:

persistent pain, what does it mean?

424

:

So I'm going to be honest here.

425

:

What does it mean?

426

:

I'm going to just say this

straight off the cuff.

427

:

Uh, it's holding me back.

428

:

Uh, it's stopping me from training.

429

:

It's annoying me.

430

:

So I'm actually very resistant to this.

431

:

Now, if I put my sort of, let's say

Eastern understanding filter on, I'm

432

:

really, and I've said this a million

times, resistance is suffering.

433

:

Whatever we resist, it is suffering.

434

:

So I'm resisting what's going on.

435

:

And hence, uh, there's probably a

tightness in my architecture of my body.

436

:

There's a tenseness in my

thinking, thinking as well.

437

:

Um, And you alluded to already

about if we're holding ourselves a

438

:

particular way and we don't know,

that's, that's really intriguing.

439

:

So what meaning are you seeing the, uh,

whether it's me or with other people,

440

:

what meaning do you see come out of like,

what does pay mean for this individual?

441

:

What, what kind of themes are you

seeing in it with your clients?

442

:

Jamie Webb: Yeah, sure.

443

:

I mean, I think, um, and again, that

goes back to a point I mentioned

444

:

earlier and it being completely

unique for every individual.

445

:

I think if we, maybe expand on your

one, Sal, and then, and then maybe

446

:

move into some other examples that, uh,

just crop up for me as we're chatting.

447

:

Um, I think in your case, I love

your honesty and the frustration

448

:

and resilience that, you know, the

resistance and that's, uh, very classic.

449

:

And I'm sure that will resonate

with, with the listeners.

450

:

Um, but for you, the bigger picture

is the, you, you, you love training

451

:

and it is, it's the fear of what

you're missing out on and, and,

452

:

kind of on a, on a deeper level.

453

:

from our conversations and I'm sure

you've, you, you, you've spoken

454

:

about this before, it's important

to your mental wellbeing as well.

455

:

Um, you know, it might, it might even

be important to your social wellbeing,

456

:

you know, um, when you, um, when you

go training, you might meet friends at

457

:

the gym or, you know, you might have.

458

:

coffee with someone afterwards.

459

:

So it becomes a big part of your life and

going back to our previous, discussion on,

460

:

what pain is, um, you know, that threat

and that protection, if there's a threat

461

:

that, Oh my God, let's take a runner's

cause I know runners get, a lot from this

462

:

and the catastrophization, which I'm sure

you've spoken about on previous, podcasts.

463

:

But you know, the brain will quickly

go to, Oh, this Achilles problem.

464

:

Am I going to be able to do my race?

465

:

I'm going to be able to run a PB.

466

:

Um, am I, am I, uh, and then I'm

not, what happens if I can't run?

467

:

And if I, and if I can't run, um, I'm not

going to be seeing my running friends.

468

:

And if I don't, what am I

going to do with myself?

469

:

And, and, and running is really

important for my mental mental health.

470

:

And, and then I'm just going to go insane.

471

:

And, you know, I intentionally picked

up my pace in my, in my voice there

472

:

to just, you know, try and give a

sense of what happens in our brains.

473

:

And we all do it.

474

:

Um, it's just kind of

catching yourself doing it and

475

:

noticing that you're doing it.

476

:

and then just taking that, that,

that step back, I think, I think

477

:

is, is, is really important.

478

:

So.

479

:

Yeah, I think, I think I pretty

much covered a lot of the bases

480

:

there, really, just in one

example and projecting on there.

481

:

Sal: I Yeah.

482

:

I was going to have

one more layer to that.

483

:

So yeah, absolutely.

484

:

There are these implications

of what, what does it mean?

485

:

And it means I can't do this.

486

:

Can't do that.

487

:

Maybe see friends, uh, let's say,

and I know runners and they put a

488

:

lot of work in to get to their race.

489

:

And then suddenly if there's a, you

know, an Achilles or a problem, ah,

490

:

What I also notice is, let's go another

level deeper, particularly this is

491

:

my lens of work, is it's about your

identity, who you are as a person.

492

:

So I identify with training like,

trying training like an athlete,

493

:

and that's how I identify.

494

:

So if I cannot do that, that's, that's,

uh, potentially taking away a piece of my

495

:

identity, which I care very much about.

496

:

because we, we hold our identity close.

497

:

So I wonder, and of course this

sort of slips into the realm of

498

:

different archetypal patterns or

what we call parts in psychology.

499

:

Uh, inner family systems is another model,

but the aspects of self, you know, one

500

:

self wants to be training, one self is

feeling a bit sore, wants to hide away.

501

:

And I think this is where

I see the disconnection.

502

:

And this is why I'm interested to talk

to you about another layer about this

503

:

disconnection between mind and body.

504

:

or between the parts of ourself and it

seems to be for some of us we can get an

505

:

injury because we're disconnected from

our body like forcing the body to do

506

:

something when perhaps it doesn't want

to or the other way is not giving your

507

:

body the conditions of say exercise and

activity and it's becoming redundant so

508

:

that disconnection I see is a problem

what what is there anything you're seeing

509

:

with disconnection in people's bodies and

their in their thinking self their feeling

510

:

self that that presents in a problem

511

:

Jamie Webb: Yeah, I think, oh

gosh, this is another big one, Sal.

512

:

And, uh, so, uh, if I get too

detailed, do, uh, do pull me out.

513

:

Um, I think there's, there's, there's two

things that immediately spring to mind.

514

:

I'll, I'll start on, on, on the first one.

515

:

I'm fascinated by, um, the, the

catastrophization example I just gave.

516

:

would be more on a, an anxious spectrum.

517

:

so someone who more associates with

anxiety, um, we talk about, um, uh, body,

518

:

body anxiety as, as, as a thing, um, you

know, that fear of what they've done to

519

:

themselves and, and that, and that kind of

thing, there's also, kind of like a bodily

520

:

disassociation as well, that can happen.

521

:

And, that is, I think, where I say,

I think, because I really don't know.

522

:

Um and obviously it's unique for everyone,

but it's kind of like, you have the

523

:

mental capacity, and going back to you

probably because it's important for your

524

:

self worth and your overall, this is who

I am that you alluded to, but you have

525

:

that ability to push through anything.

526

:

Um, and we're talking pain

here and, and we all have that.

527

:

if you've just run a 26 mile marathon,

you're absolutely on your knees.

528

:

Um, and a lion leaps out at

you, what are you going to do?

529

:

You're going to run faster than

you've ever run in your life.

530

:

Um, you know, there's that, I forget

the name, it was 127 hours, something

531

:

like that movie where a guy got trapped

in the outback in Australia and he, he

532

:

sawed his own arm off with a rusty pen

knife because that was any sort, he

533

:

said it felt a bit weird, but he didn't

feel pain because his brain had decided

534

:

that in order to keep him alive, it was

more important that he didn't feel pain.

535

:

So, uh, absolutely fascinating.

536

:

Now going back to the disassociation.

537

:

I think, um, and I put, um, a lot

of Olympic athletes in this bracket.

538

:

I'd also put them in a lot of them

in the anxiety bracket as well.

539

:

it varies from person to person, but

you can go through things to a point.

540

:

and I've seen a lot of people over time

where they have that ability, their

541

:

overall goal for whatever that might be,

Olympic gold, self worth, mental health,

542

:

even, you know, trying to, um, you know,

personally, if I've got any mental health

543

:

issues, I'm prone to over training myself.

544

:

Um, I've been, been there, got the

t shirt many, many, many times.

545

:

Um, so, but what you find with that

disassociation is when the pain

546

:

does start creeping in, when you

don't, when you don't seem able

547

:

to zone out from it anymore, then

there's quite a big kind of drop off.

548

:

and actually a lot of people I've

seen who've previously done that then

549

:

turn in the other way and become very

anxious all of a sudden because they're

550

:

like, I can't control this anymore.

551

:

You know, my usual

strategies aren't working.

552

:

And, and, uh, Um, so yes, in quite a

few interesting cases, like that over

553

:

the years, and it's almost, you've got

to rebuild that confidence in the body,

554

:

and, and in, and in the, in the self

and, and in sometimes you, you do have

555

:

to address the underlying, okay, why

were they doing that in the first place?

556

:

and that, self worth, I keep

referring to the big one for myself

557

:

and, and, and a lot of us, I think.

558

:

Um, And so sometimes getting people

like yourself on board, I have

559

:

a, uh, you know, um, uh, I have

some very clever friends as well.

560

:

If, if in the physical work, we

do pick out something a little bit

561

:

more, emotional, mental, then I have

people that I can refer to as well.

562

:

Hmm.

563

:

Sal: I mean a caveat for me and I'll

be really, uh, vulnerable and honest

564

:

here, but one of the reasons I train

is originally it's, it's kind of

565

:

less lessons it's charged now, but

originally was because I hated feeling

566

:

weak and it's a really, uh, revealing

statement about sort of my psyche.

567

:

But.

568

:

The feeling of weakness, uh, and I have

an autoimmune condition, which sometimes,

569

:

uh, will pull me down and crush me.

570

:

The, the feeling of weakness

is abhorrent for me.

571

:

It's been a challenge.

572

:

I've done loads of therapy

on it and it's a lot of work.

573

:

It's a lot better for sure.

574

:

And I'm in a lot better place,

but that's the truth of it.

575

:

And if anyone has Bernie Brown, the very

well famous, uh, shame researcher, you

576

:

know, a lot of her work and other people's

too, would point out to, particularly

577

:

for a man, weakness equals shame.

578

:

So it can be that as a, certainly

if you're a man and you're

579

:

training really hard and are you

training to get away from that?

580

:

Now, of course, the flip of it as well,

just to be on the positive, that I train

581

:

for fun because there's a playful side in

me and I love to move and play because.

582

:

Hell, I feel like a kid again.

583

:

It's brilliant.

584

:

Certainly a north of 50.

585

:

It's lovely to be able to feel

childlike and youthful and vigorous.

586

:

So it's about seeing these sides.

587

:

And I think that's the work I

do a lot of self work for sure.

588

:

And I see it with my clients, but Look at

the shadow and look at the light because

589

:

both of them are probably part of the, uh,

driving mechanisms behind why you might

590

:

overtrain, why you might push through

something, um, or why you might be stuck.

591

:

And if you don't look at that,

that psychological architecture,

592

:

it's like it's driving the bus,

as the old expression goes.

593

:

Now I want to touch on something here

that you mentioned about, perhaps

594

:

like, athletes who may have had a

difficulty and they've slid down into

595

:

maybe more of an anxiety type response.

596

:

If we think of the four Fs, flow,

fight, flight, and freeze, you know,

597

:

the two sides of the nervous system,

fight and flight, sympathetic,

598

:

flow and freeze, parasympathetic.

599

:

What I often see is that there's a,

um, it's like a navigation point.

600

:

We're, we're neurologically somewhere in

that response and they're all healthy.

601

:

If we are appropriately

responding to, stimulus.

602

:

But if you've been in fight response

a lot, like pushing towards something,

603

:

working really hard, so there's forward

motion and you have an injury or you have

604

:

an autoimmune condition like I do, and

like suddenly you can't train, it can

605

:

slide you down into that anxiety place.

606

:

Or for me, sometimes it's a shutdown.

607

:

Like it's a retractionism, what the

word, people use the word depression,

608

:

but I would call it shutdown.

609

:

It's the shutdown state.

610

:

And, and I think that's because I've

my nervous system is responding to the

611

:

experience and the meaning I'm giving it.

612

:

Do you work with polyvagal theory

in your work to some degree?

613

:

Jamie Webb: Very much so, Sal.

614

:

My head had already gone there

as you, as you were chatting.

615

:

Yeah.

616

:

Sal: Great.

617

:

So if we use this lens, and I really love

this lens because it's super easy to get.

618

:

We've got flow state when we're

feeling socially engaged, we feel

619

:

confident, we're really, you know,

life's just frictionless, it's lovely.

620

:

Fight state is in, it's not

act, not, not aggression.

621

:

We're talking about moving towards

problems, you know, solving

622

:

problems, going towards the issue.

623

:

Heavyweight training, boxing, CrossFit,

you know, that's often fight state.

624

:

All good.

625

:

Flight state is generally

moving away from the problem.

626

:

So on the positive, it's like, yeah, I

need to, to put the weights down now.

627

:

I need to go home now.

628

:

Or flight state negative is like,

I don't want to deal with it.

629

:

Ah, you know, anxiety

chasing you down the road.

630

:

And of course, Um, freeze state and

it's, and it's more, it's positive realm.

631

:

It's like you need to quiet down,

like put the weights down, go

632

:

have a, go have a massage, go

home, read a book, be quiet, rest.

633

:

And that's the sort of more

positive quality of it.

634

:

It's darker quality is, is more of a

depression quality, which you've already

635

:

suggested you've been down that road.

636

:

Uh, I know that it's worst state

is, is trauma, you know, when

637

:

there's other qualities to it.

638

:

So what are you seeing when people come

into your, into your, into your space

639

:

and they've got some stuff going on?

640

:

Do you see them mapping through

one of these neurological spaces?

641

:

Jamie Webb: Yeah.

642

:

Yeah.

643

:

And I, and I think, um, you know,

I've been, doing this, for, it's going

644

:

to be 20 years, in August for me.

645

:

so when you've, um, been lucky enough to,

um, spend time with, I don't know, people.

646

:

3, 4, 5, 000 people, in,

in, in close proximity.

647

:

you have a unique insight,

into, into the human condition.

648

:

And, I think it got to a point

probably about five years ago where

649

:

I meet the person for the first time

in the, in, in the reception area.

650

:

And I take one look at them and

I kind of know where they're at.

651

:

I'm sure other professionals in my line

of work and particularly, obviously even

652

:

more so in, in, in the psychotherapy

realm, we'll have the similar experience.

653

:

Now that's our initial judgment.

654

:

And we, which is useful and it's,

it's instinctive for people like us.

655

:

but we've also got to be, wise that

that's our initial, um, indication.

656

:

I think it's usually pretty accurate.

657

:

But that's our judgment and we have to

remember that is, that is a judgment.

658

:

Um, and then we need to

modify that as we go.

659

:

Um, but I think I, you know, the,

the, the reason I, I love Parley Vagel

660

:

theory is, is because it, it talks

about our nervous system is just one

661

:

nervous system, at the end of the day.

662

:

And.

663

:

all aspects of those flight,

flight free social, engagement

664

:

are active at any one time.

665

:

Um, and, and, and, and the, the, the

best example I always use is, um, sex.

666

:

Um, and it was the example that

was, given to me when I was

667

:

first introduced to the concept.

668

:

And it's, you know, there's,

there's aspects of all parts

669

:

of the nervous system in there.

670

:

There's the obvious kind of, arousal,

which, is that kind of, excitement, that

671

:

fight or flight kind of, sorry, the,

the fight, I guess, really, in terms of

672

:

what, what's going on, you're coming up.

673

:

Um, then, um, you also need that kind

of, Clearly social engagement as you,

674

:

look longingly into your partner's eyes.

675

:

but also there's that slight, the rep

reptilian part of polyvagal theory that we

676

:

talk about, the passiveness, which again,

in is extreme form is depression, in that

677

:

you are, you are letting someone in your,

your being passive, um, and allowing

678

:

someone to share your body as well.

679

:

And that's just a really

nice example of how.

680

:

just in one example of life

that all parts of our nervous

681

:

system are working together.

682

:

Um, and obviously the, you know, that's

in different states at any one time, but

683

:

going back to your original question.

684

:

And then that initial, uh, kind of

judgment as we, we, we, we were kind

685

:

of accurately saying on the person

is you, you, you make a judgment in

686

:

terms of where they're more dominant

on any given, um, uh, position.

687

:

So, you know, if, if I meet someone

and like, yeah, I'm absolutely

688

:

fine, Jamie, there's no problem.

689

:

That stress is absolutely fine.

690

:

I've got no issues at all.

691

:

You kind of know that they're a little

bit, they're a little bit flighty, uh,

692

:

at the moment and if, if their demeanor,

and again, this probably comes across on

693

:

the, on the video version, not so much

so, and I'll try and do the voice as well

694

:

for the people just listening on audio.

695

:

But if, oh yeah, I'm,

yeah, I, yeah, I'm here.

696

:

So I'm sorry.

697

:

From existence, I've got this problem.

698

:

Sorry to trouble you, sorry

for the, sorry, sorry, sorry.

699

:

that, you know, they're more

on a, on a, on a depressive

700

:

end, end of the scale there.

701

:

And, and so you immediately pick

up on, on, on those nuances.

702

:

And then once we sit down and chat

to 'em, get to know them, we get

703

:

to know a little bit more about the

detail, possibly the reasons why.

704

:

Um, get to understand them,

get to understand, um, how.

705

:

Um, how they are right now, maybe

that was just an initial, coyness or

706

:

a little kind of anxiety and meeting

someone, or if there's some more kind

707

:

of, um, uh, underlying, underlying work.

708

:

And of course, from, from my

perspective, um, how that, how

709

:

that shows up in their body.

710

:

Um, because every, every emotion

has a physical representation.

711

:

So if you spend a long time in an emotion,

that will, you know, shut down some

712

:

parts of your body, maybe open up others.

713

:

And, that will, undoubtedly, be one

of the things that's holding you in

714

:

a, pain pattern from, from my work.

715

:

Sal: Yeah, so interesting, isn't it?

716

:

And I think that's something, uh, which

I'm, I'm hoping as, uh, as a listener,

717

:

we can take away because something as

simple as what's the shape of your body?

718

:

How are you carrying yourself right now?

719

:

So if you're sitting, are you

collapsed at your shoulders?

720

:

Is your ribcage depressed?

721

:

You know, is your chin tucked down?

722

:

What does that feel like?

723

:

And if we think about technology

use, particularly a phone, most

724

:

phone use invokes an anxiety

slash depression like response.

725

:

It's quite timid, it's

collapsed in the chest.

726

:

There's, there's a lot of

sort of inwardness to it.

727

:

And of course, using a phone is

a very abstract thing rather than

728

:

experiential thing that's around you.

729

:

So the shape of your body, your

body language, and it's a space I've

730

:

worked with quite a few people, like

to change their body language in a

731

:

way that's going to change how they

present in the world and actually

732

:

often present in front of people is

just as important as the psychology.

733

:

In fact, in often in many times more

so because it's embodied, right?

734

:

It's an embodied cognitive state.

735

:

So what I find interesting is that we

can get very familiar with these states.

736

:

I've seen it in my practice.

737

:

It sounds like you're seeing it.

738

:

We get identified with, and

we often say it, don't we?

739

:

You know, I'm an anxious person or

I have anxiety or I have depression.

740

:

And I'm not going to say that's not true.

741

:

That's not what I'm saying.

742

:

But I'm saying if we overly identify,

it becomes quite a familiar place.

743

:

Whether we want that or not, it becomes

a familiar and we have to be very careful

744

:

of the homeostatic Gravity of the human

system, we, we gravitate to homeostasis

745

:

and sometimes if it's been misaligned

because of life, life's been tough to

746

:

you, your upbringing's been tough, your,

your gravity point might be a depressed

747

:

quality because of the circumstances of

your life or an anxious because you've

748

:

been around threats all of your life, so

we're not saying that it's wrong, you're

749

:

not having it, but if you're overly

biased into that space, It does suggest

750

:

there's opportunity to step into this

other, let's say, neurological, emotional

751

:

states of, and hands up, so another

absolute raw example, you know, I, I,

752

:

when I grew up, I, I hated fighting and

there was problems at school when I was

753

:

young, uh, difficulties in my upbringing.

754

:

In more recent years, in fact

last year, I started boxing.

755

:

which is hilarious because I'm

like, I'm going to hit someone,

756

:

I'm going to hit things.

757

:

And I am not, not that far

down the road yet, but there

758

:

is permission to be aggressive.

759

:

There's permission for the fight state.

760

:

And I think as a, as a modality

growing of certainly my system, taking

761

:

an anxious person and giving them

a fight state in safe, controlled

762

:

environment is a very healthy thing.

763

:

Because if you've always had to back

down, if you've always been at threat,

764

:

You need to turn the tables somehow.

765

:

So we're not saying go and punch people.

766

:

That's not what I'm saying at all.

767

:

I'm saying go get a safe way to understand

fight for someone else's weight training.

768

:

A heavyweight movement invokes

you have to be aggressive with

769

:

it, you have to really go for it.

770

:

But if you're going through it

with a conscious state, what I

771

:

find is you're giving yourself

permission to change state.

772

:

And perhaps the person who's got a bit

too much aggression because of their,

773

:

again, their life story is taken that way.

774

:

Then how can we help you

back off a little bit?

775

:

How can we help you find a bit

more safety without having to, you

776

:

know, uh, be overly fight statey?

777

:

So, balance is seemingly the need.

778

:

We need to be able to go reflexively

into these states as appropriate,

779

:

hopefully come out of them

when they're not appropriate.

780

:

And, um, yeah, it's a big, it's a

big thing that I love to work with

781

:

because I've been through, uh, years

of, uh, being in an anxious space and

782

:

then going to the flow state in yoga,

just been totally zenned out state.

783

:

And now I actually am okay.

784

:

I mean, it was, it was the more

heavy training disciplines.

785

:

and the psychological work which

I've done has helped me like,

786

:

yeah, stand up for yourself.

787

:

It's okay.

788

:

You can do that.

789

:

And then there's that real,

ah, I feel more balanced now.

790

:

Jamie Webb: Yeah,

791

:

I think it's, um, oh, very much so.

792

:

Everything you said.

793

:

Um, and I think, adaptability,

um, is the, is the key.

794

:

Having the ability to, move in and

around all of those nervous system states

795

:

that we were, we were talking about.

796

:

Yeah, I often talk about in this

very room here, where you are on a

797

:

theoretical, the floors kind of like.

798

:

And the, you know, that massive, we're

all on a sliding scale somewhere in there.

799

:

We don't know exactly where it is.

800

:

It's a theoretical scale.

801

:

Um, but when we're up here or down

there, we get stuck and actually, um, we.

802

:

Um, we, you know, we, getting into

the gab or matte stuff, we are, all of

803

:

our decisions are, um, based, based on

keeping our nervous system in the same

804

:

way that it's because it is accustomed

to, you know, our, our, our choice of

805

:

our jobs, the choice of our partners,

the choice, these, these choices

806

:

we make, which we think are active,

conscious, uh, choices, but, and they

807

:

are, but they, they, managed to keep us.

808

:

in, in the way to which we've

become accustomed from a

809

:

nervous system perspective.

810

:

So, coming to change, it's about spending

more time in those different states

811

:

that you alluded to, uh, Sal, and, and,

and just to bring it back to my field

812

:

in terms of the, um, the, the, the

tissue side, the physical side, and it's

813

:

that, Uh, adaptability of the tissues.

814

:

Can the tissues adapt?

815

:

Yeah, you can slump, and then you

go, you know, up in the air, um,

816

:

but can you be everywhere in between

that at the appropriate time?

817

:

I think that's the, that's the really

important, really, really important work.

818

:

And I think also, um, We've kind of

mentioned around this already, but the,

819

:

and then this doesn't happen for, for, for

all of my client by, by any stretch, but,

820

:

um, the number of times I've, I've seen

people when I've done some physical work,

821

:

where we're working on something that's a

little bit sticky, the, the, the evokes a

822

:

specific emotion I've had people say, Oh,

Jamie, that's my anxiety right there, or,

823

:

Oh, um, that reminds me of this memory.

824

:

Oh, that's making me feel a bit, a

bit funny in the tummy, my, my, my

825

:

adrenal glands going, and you can

even trace that in, in certain people,

826

:

if, if their, their minds work that

way, um, to very specific events.

827

:

Um, now, obviously, if we've more

traumatized people, you have to

828

:

be careful, not to re traumatize

them, which, which is possible.

829

:

but, uh, as I've got more

experience with that, what I've,

830

:

what I've realized is that.

831

:

actually, if I'm in tune and listening

to what they and their body are

832

:

telling me, I'm watching for the signs.

833

:

I'm feeling with my hands, my

fingers, um, then nothing comes out

834

:

that isn't ready to, to come out.

835

:

which is really lovely, place

that, for me, to be able to say

836

:

that, it's taken a lot of effort

and a lot of hard work and, to, to

837

:

Sal: Well,

838

:

Jamie Webb: that.

839

:

Sal: I've been on the table

mate, so I can testify.

840

:

Which is so cool.

841

:

So there's so much in this space.

842

:

Um, of course we, we don't

have all the time in the world

843

:

to share this, but we do.

844

:

You know, for me, and obviously Jamie,

when you and I have spoken, you know,

845

:

outside of this, this conversation and

today, it feels like if we can see the

846

:

connections between our psychological

architecture, who we think we are,

847

:

beliefs, all those things, our emotional

experience, how do we feel, our

848

:

neurological state, like Where am I?

849

:

Do I feel safe?

850

:

Do I feel like I'm going to

move towards the problem?

851

:

Do I want to get out of here?

852

:

Do I want to just shut down?

853

:

This self awareness grows and expresses

physiologically in the muscles,

854

:

in the tissues, in the fascia, in

the movement patterns that we see.

855

:

And.

856

:

If my dear listener, you are in pain,

struggling, you know, you've got some

857

:

physical stuff going on or you're,

you know, sort of tapping on my door

858

:

and you think it's more psychological,

you need to go to both doors.

859

:

You need to see Jamie, you need to see

someone like me because actually when we

860

:

work on the whole system, and I'll cycle

back, this is one of my big hopes for

861

:

the, for the sharing of this education.

862

:

We are systemic creatures.

863

:

We do not work in isolation.

864

:

Thoughts affect the physiology and

the physiology affects the thoughts.

865

:

And it's one ecosystem

of impact and influence.

866

:

So if you're having issues,

make sure you're speaking to

867

:

someone who understands this.

868

:

more nuanced and integrated

approach because it's likely to

869

:

be happening for you as it was

for me as it is for many of us.

870

:

Jamie, I'd like to summarize

for, for this conversation.

871

:

What are the final thoughts you might

share about how one might think about

872

:

their dealing with their physical

self and their, you know, their

873

:

psychological self that you see?

874

:

What's, what's some of the things you'd

like to finish on a sharing point for us?

875

:

Jamie Webb: Yeah, I think I'd like to

finish on a message of hope, really.

876

:

and again, I'm, I'm, I'm sure

I know we've both been there.

877

:

So, and, and, in, in those hopeless

situations and, and, and it's driven,

878

:

what we've done and, people get into

this stuff for purely self interest.

879

:

Let's be honest.

880

:

but, yeah, it's, it's, if

something's not working for you,

881

:

you're the captain of the ship.

882

:

And, um, we've all had tough

things that have gone on in our

883

:

lives and some more than others.

884

:

and I've been relatively lucky in my

life and, obviously a lot of people

885

:

have shared a lot of things with me on

the treatment couch just over there.

886

:

so I've got a, an array of, uh,

an idea of, of what, you know,

887

:

the world looks like, out there.

888

:

So It's just, trying different things

and if you're not happy with where you

889

:

are right now, do something different.

890

:

the, you alluded to, yeah,

see both of us, obviously.

891

:

and if it doesn't work with

either of us, see someone else.

892

:

there's, there's always,

different options out there.

893

:

myself and Sal, we, we love what we do

and we're always, continually learning.

894

:

There's always more stuff out there.

895

:

Um, But it's fascinating that sometimes

the, um, the emphasis might need to

896

:

be more emotional, and psychological.

897

:

And sometimes the emphasis might

need to be more, more physical.

898

:

sometimes I've had people say,

People who've done a whole raft of,

899

:

psychological work on themselves.

900

:

And, I just do a few, a few of my party

tricks and all of a sudden they're reborn

901

:

and it's almost like it's too easy.

902

:

Sal: Yeah,

903

:

Jamie Webb: And then, you know, the

flip side is that, you know, maybe

904

:

I, the person I alluded to earlier

where, it's not their knee, it's

905

:

the whole life that's the problem.

906

:

And I'm, I'm beavering away.

907

:

I'm doing my usual things, looking at

the whole body, trying to address the

908

:

biomechanics and their body's just not.

909

:

releasing in the way that I want to

despite my my best intentions and and

910

:

and for those people, you know something

They need to do something, differently,

911

:

they, they need to, address the, the,

the, the psychological aspect as a way

912

:

in, um, and then, you know, everything in

between where if you can work in parallel

913

:

with the psychological and the physical,

um, at the same time, and one, might

914

:

open up another, which is, uh, is, is,

is the truth as, as, as far as I see it.

915

:

Um, in terms of, um, you know,

uh, what, what can we do?

916

:

Um, what would be my, my

tip from a physical level?

917

:

And you're going to love this song.

918

:

That song hasn't paid me for

this, by the way, listeners.

919

:

I, I breath work.

920

:

is, is, is, is, is not

the answer to everything.

921

:

but even from a biomechanical

perspective, it is very much

922

:

at the source of everything.

923

:

I won't bore you with details.

924

:

If you want to look at the work

of the Anatomy Trains guys,

925

:

I suggest you do that online.

926

:

there's a little bit of

art on our website as well.

927

:

So it kind of, for me, it works

on nervous system level as well.

928

:

Um, like I say, biomechanically, continued

diaphragms, continues with the hip

929

:

flexors, uh, and ramifications, onwards.

930

:

really holding myself

back on detail there.

931

:

So yeah, so certainly, that would

be, a take on that message of hope,

932

:

um, the message of the connectedness

of the physicality and, and the,

933

:

that emotional, Ability, uh, of

the, the, the body to physically

934

:

store those, those, those emotions.

935

:

and then breath work as a, as

a way, as a way of, as a nice

936

:

all rounder, for all of us.

937

:

we all have to breathe.

938

:

when we breathe slower, we,

when breathe out more than we

939

:

breathe in, it calms us down.

940

:

When we breathe that in more than

we breathe out, it perks us up.

941

:

There's a fundamental, there's

a fundamentality about that.

942

:

Sal: yeah.

943

:

Thank you, Jamie.

944

:

Yeah, really nice.

945

:

So many points.

946

:

Yes, we are coming to the end of our show.

947

:

Breathwork is an entire other subject.

948

:

Bray and Jamie, maybe you'll come

back on and we'll talk biomechanics.

949

:

Um, yes, I'm trained as a

950

:

Breathwork, teacher.

951

:

It is

952

:

Jamie Webb: there you go.

953

:

Sal: tool.

954

:

Yeah, so, um, and actually I'll be putting

some content on my website soon, so if

955

:

you're listening to this, have a quick

peep at the website, there's probably

956

:

likely to be something on there, uh,

around the Breathwork piece, which you

957

:

can hopefully dig into, so yeah, just

go to the website, look at the show

958

:

notes, the details will be in there.

959

:

Dear listener, as always, I say this

every time and I'll say it again,

960

:

if something in this has piqued your

interest, caught your attention, rewind,

961

:

write it down, use AI, don't make how

you do it, but capture the knowledge.

962

:

and use it.

963

:

It is yours to implement.

964

:

I hope it changes something in your world

and I hope it changes something in, uh,

965

:

in your thinking and your feeling as well.

966

:

So Jamie, thank you for coming on and

sharing your utter brilliant wisdom today.

967

:

We basically need an entire day

to unpack your mind, probably

968

:

more, but it's, it's probably the

start point for, for our listener.

969

:

Um, thank you so much, dear listener.

970

:

Take care until the next one.

971

:

I'll see you soon.

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About the Podcast

Mindset, Mood & Movement: Systems Thinking for Founder
Human performance podcast for life and business
Welcome to the Mindset, Mood & Movement Podcast. Your essential resource for founders, freelancers, and business owners looking to optimise their mindset, health, and business success.

Dive deep into the realm of human performance with us as we explore the systemic connections between psychology, emotions, and physical wellbeing, and their profound impact on achieving success and fulfilment in both personal and professional life.

Discover 3 key outcome areas: enhancing performance, redefining fulfilment, and cultivating peace of mind. Join me as I feature guest specialists in various fields, offering invaluable insights and expertise plus mini-episodes where I address specific challenge and provide actionable guidance on overcoming these obstacles.

Each episode is crafted to provide education, tools and strategies for you, whether you're navigating the complexities of entrepreneurship or seeking personal growth in your professional journey. My podcast serves as your ultimate guide to self-improvement and achieving excellence in your endeavours.

Expect to gain practical insights, delve into expert interviews, and receive actionable strategies tailored to the unique needs of small business owners and ambitious individuals striving to make a positive impact on the world.

About your host

Profile picture for Sal Jefferies

Sal Jefferies

I’m Sal - Human Performance Coach, Educator and Founder.

Everything I coach and teach is what I practice in my life. Mindset work including psychological and emotional development. And for my physical health, I do strength training, fitness and breathing practices. In all areas, I'm constantly learning and always growing.

At mid-life, I'm curious to how we can shape the second half of our life whilst using the latest science and learning's from psychology, emotional regulation and physical health. Over the last 25 years, I have immersed myself in many Eastern influences from philosophy, yoga and meditation. I find in our current world, there's much to learn by combining the latest science with ancient wisdom.

For me, working on the mind is paramount. Also, remaining fit, healthy and curious helps me increase performance, find fulfilment and create peace of mind. I believe this is important both a personal and professional life.

My professional endeavours, which inform my work, include:
Human Performance Coaching (for Founders), Contemporary Psychotherapist, Yoga Teacher, Strength & Conditioning Trainer and Breathwork Trainer. Before this latest chapter of my life, I've been a Photographer, Advertising Exec & Dancer.

When I'm not working, educating or learning, I'll be out with my dogs by the sea in Brighton, UK.